Wow. Who would've thought that Mr. Charrington would be one of the Thought Police? I geuss you could see it coming because Winston's and Julia's situtation seemed too good to be true.
@KathrynC--I loved how Orwell mentioned many times that Winston knew he would get caught, but it didn't happen until this point. It caught me off guard.
DO you think Goldstein will play a major part in the last section of 1984? What about O'Brien. Both of them appeared for a short section and then dissappeared again.
@Kathryn- I definitely agree. I was shocked but when I thought about it, they definitely had it coming. Now I'm interested to see what will happen afterward. Obviously they won't get vaporized or else the book couldn't go on...so what happens??
@Class What do you think is the significance of having the names of each of the chapters of Goldstein's as the "moto" that Big Brother has put in place?
@Katheryn I was actually really surprised. I had suspicions that someone was part of the Thought Police. I think it was bound to happen because there is no way in that kind of government that they could get away with violating so many crimes.
@Reid It was surprising to find out he was a member of the Though Police but I agree with Kathryn because Winton's and Julia's relationship seemed too good to actually happen.
@class Julia started to bother me in that she isn't quite as into the idea of the Brotherhood as Winston. I wonder if she's only going along with it because she wants to please Winston and thinks that would be best for their relationship.
@Kathryn Ya, I guess they didn't see that one coming. But on the other hand it doesn't suprise me, because at this point it's hard to know who to believe.
@Casey I know what you mean. She seems to be a side character now. Like when they were talking to O'Brien, she didn't contribute to the conversation and I don't know if she really wants to be in the Brotherhood.
@Kathryn--I almost feel like O'Brien might be setting them up. There is little information about Brotherhood (which is to protect the members) but because of that it is very easy to turn against Winston.
@Kathryn I'm honestly not really sure if they will make much of a reappearance in the book since there are so many secrets of the Brotherhood and how O'Brien said that basically now Winston and Julia are pretty much on their own except for the missions that they will receive that aren't even going to be personally given to them from O'Brien
@class- During Hate Week, the book talks about how this picture of a soldier had been plastered all over the walls...outnumbering even the portraits of Big Brother. Portraits of Big Brother?! Are these literal portraits (as in a head shot) of Big Brother? Do these people know what Big Brother looks like?
@Class What do you think of Julia's character? Personally, I find her kind of annoying. She never seems interested in the true rebellion, she just likes acting like she is resisting the government.
I was surprised at how quickly Winston agreed to join the Brotherhood. I know he loves and shares their beliefs, but on page 176, O'Brien says, "you will work, be cauht, confess, and die. Those are the only results you will ever see."
@Reid I thought it was a big change because they all had such a perfect situation but, it doesn't work that well in a book talking about how threatened society is by a government
@Ellen- I'm not sure! I was thinking the same thing when he said "that was the last he ever saw of Julia". I'm not sure if that is true, but at the same time, I can see the story going on without Julia.
@ Reid--- I was actually surprised when I found out that Mr. Charrington was a member of the thought police. He seemed like a genuinely kind and understanding man. Finding out that this man belonged to the government proved anyone could be a member of the thought police. It seems like there is no safe place for a rebellion to begin.
@Kathryn I don't think that we will see O'Brien and Goldstein again just because of how secretive the Brotherhood is. Instead of just giving Winston the book, O'Brien sent people to give it to him.
@Drew- I agree about Julia. She is way too interested in Winston and way too disinterested in Big Brother and the Brotherhood and the book and everything. I feel like at first she really was interested in rebelling and now that they have and nothing really exciting has happened, then she's just over it.
@Hailey I think that it is just a picture of someone so that the people will recognize him. The portrait might not actually be Big Brother, because we don't know if he is a single person or a group of people. But the idea of Big Brother is a lot more powerful if there is a face to go along with the name, so I think that is why there are "portraits" of him.
@Class Do you really think it's one big illusion? I think the past is an illusion but the present is very real. People are being treated unfairly and I think there is an actual war going on.
@Class I didn't expect that the storekeeper was going to be a member of the thought police but it didn't surprise me that he was because he knew about them and it makes sense that someone who would have a room like that would be lying. This room may have been used multiple times to catch people like Winston and Julia, and I just think they were foolish to trust someone they didn't know to keep their secret.
I admit I was a bit surprised at Mr. Charrington being a member of the thought police, but it's honestly not all too unrealistic. The question I have is why did Mr. Charrington wait so long to make his move?
@Ellen I don't think Winston will see Julia again. I don't think that the government think it is safe to allow that to happen. If the two come together, they would be stronger.
@Drew I also find Julia really annoying, she doesn't really seem to be caring about the rebellion as a whole for changing the society as to what she views as better, but instead she is just taking all of these minor little breaking of laws and trying to live her own life to the fullest. Even when it came to Winston reading the book, she didn't really care about it, she fell asleep even. She's quite different from Winston and I agree with what he said "Your only a rebel from the waist down." I think that really does fit her character.
@Rick~ Well, I think that is what Winston thinks will happen anyway. Remember in the last discussion when we talked about how Winston refers to himself as the walking dead? He knows that will happen anyway.
@Baergan- I like that idea and agree with it. I just found it interesting because who would they choose? I think most people would have a certain picture of Big Brother in their head and they'd need to choose someone powerful looking because Big Brother is portrayed as such a powerful figure.
Winston and Julia have already realized they are ready to commit suicide by being together in 1984's society, meaning he has already told himself tat he's prepared for that.
@class- Okay, I'm gonna bring this up again. Why do you think Winston and Julia are so convinced they're going to die? Now that they have been caught by the Thought Police there is a large possibility that they will, but I don't understand why before when there was no sign of the Thought Police they were so pessimistic. They could at least be hopeful.
@Drew I agree. She definitely annoys me. She doesnt seem to care about anything. She does not care about her and Winston's relationship, and she doesn't care about the Brotherhood. She just wants to rebel and have fun, but she isn't passionate about it.
@Drew I think Julia is selfish. She only worries about herself and how an issue will effect her and nobody else. Julia was worried about what would happen to her and not Winston when the thought police arrived.
How does the Brotherhood do anything? The location of the leader (Goldstein) and it's target (Big Brother) are unknown. And, it's hard to become a member and even if you manage to join, you don't know who else is a member as well. You could think you are talking to another member, dislodge some secret info and get turned in for thoughtcrime.
What is your opinion on what Goldstein's book has to say about Big Brother and the government? What about the way that Winston was describing the truth of what the government is doing as far as getting rid of any true records of the events that happen?
@Class This book was written in 1950ish. This story takes place in 1984. Do you think it's possible for the world to undergo such a massive overhaul in only 34 years?
@Hailey I think that thew government has made up the pictures of Big Brother. I think people make images of Big Brother based off of emotion and feelings too.
@Brooke I agree. I think Julia is only interested in rebelling through sex. When it comes to killing and losing her life, Julia is scared and not interested. I think she wants to avoid the topic of the actual rebellion and keep having sex.
@Hailey I don't think that they posters and portraits of Big Brother are actually of a real person, but instead perhaps a made up face in order to make the common citizen think that they truly are always being watched by someone. Which is true that they are, but Big Brother seems to be standing for the government and not just one person.
@Hailey I just think its because they have seen what happens to those who disobey, so they just know that they will die. They know that no one lives after that, so they don't have any hope whatsoever.
@ Drew--- Julia is a very frusterating figure in the book. She is very suspicious. I can't tell if she truly is against government, or if she just says so in order to connect with Winston. I don't think that Winston feels true love for Julia.
@Drew I agree, and she is becoming very annoying. She seems really fake, and she is all talk. She is using Winston and putting him in danger, and though she says she knows they will be caught at some point, I dont think she realizes how horrible it is going to be and I think in reality she thinks she is invincible.
@Hailey They thought they were going to die because the government has SO much power that the average person would go to the Thought Police. There was always the immanent threat that someone had seen them at one point.
@Rick I agree with you, I would be the same way. However, I think that Winston has had a hunger to rebel for awhile so he jumped at the opportunity. Also, the brotherhood was just a rumor at one point so he must have been excited to see that it actually exists.
@Rick Exactly. What exactly are they accomplishing if all of them are just dying? I think that was included in the story to portray Winston and Julia's sheer desperation for something- anything- to cling on to.
@Baergen I agree with the fact that Julia is not passionate about the resistance. However, I do think she cares about Winston. I think that her love for Winston (though it is a really weird relationship) is the only way she is willing to rebel.
@Ellen I completely think that a society can change that much in such a short time. Look at how Hitler came into power, that took only a short time for everyone to really change and get accustomed to how he is dictating over the people under his control.
@Drew I think Julia is scared like you said, but I think that her way of dealing with it is through her relationship with Winston. When that's taken away, she'll put on a mask of rebellion.
@Ellen- I definitely do. I think one thing in history can totally change the course of the future. I think if we had a World War III today, then in 15 years, our world would be so different. Look at World War I. It decimated German economy and that was one of the reasons we we had a World War II. History can change quickly.
I don't believe this kind of overhaul happens over a couple decades. I think Orwell might have chosen to make his date so soon to emphasize his point, at how quickly he felt we were headed in this direction.
@class Do you see any similarities between Goldstein and Big Brother? Both of them have never been seen in person and control their people secretly and under cover.
@Ellen I was wondering the same thing. I mean, it seems like such a huge change in only 34 years. Especially the changing of history, I think that it would take longer for the information to stop being told. The people who lived through the time before Big Brother would still be alive, it just doesn't make sense.
What do you guys think of on page 199 it talks abouot how war used to be between two groups, but now it's between a ruler and it's people. How is this being shown now in the book?
@Ellen~ I think that it is definitely possible for a society to change in 30 years. We have changed a lot in 30 years, just in a (depending on how you think about it), more or less positive direction.
@Arman Tuff question. I think there is a lot Goldstein was predicting for the future. I think he also wanted to inform people with his book. As to getting rid of the past, I think through history people have triend many times to erase the past. Nobody wants to dwell in the past, but rather live in the future.
@Drew Well wasn't Julia rebelling before she even met Winston? The first time they snuck off Winston asked Julia if she had ever done that kind of thing before and she told him she had done it tons of times and he wasn't the first.
@Hailey even to set up the thought police, and telescreens EVERYWHERE and a new language and a whole new government system and everything? I mean, America has been around for 200 years and we are still developing our government.
@Rick In response to your comment to Ellen... I agree. I think Orwell was showing that if things go in the totalitarian way that Russia and Germany were going, eventually (and possibly very quickly), the whole world would be controlled by that.
@class- "the book" brings so much incorperation into the understanding of why things are the way they are. Why do you think no one wants to let that information loose? How do the Brotherhood follow all of this information anyway?
@Ellen I think that this large of a change wouldn't be likley, however, many things in society can change very quickly. Just look at technology for example, it has evolved so much in just 50n years.
@ Ellen It is very possible for such a drastic change to happen in 34 years. Goverments have had change by revolts in less thann a month. Look at Libya and Egypt. After WWI there was the Great Depression which led to drastic governmental changes, I bet Orwell thought their was gonna be a worse form of the Great Depression after WWII.
@Inner Circle~ you mentioned that this reminded you of Hitler and the information that was being filtered. Keep in mind that people in Germany did know what was going on, they just didn't do anything about it.
@Drew- Yea, I was wondering about Goldstein. Who is he?? He is just like Big Brother in the fact that no one sees him and to me, he seems almost like a guy made up just so people in the Brotherhood would think there is a powerful person heading it.
What is your opinion on the promises that Julia and Winston had to make to be part of the Brotherhood? Do you think that they will be tested on their dedication level and what will they do? Will they do as they promised or back down and deny everything?
@Drew I think it is very hard to tell if either of them are real or if Goldstein is good, if the Brotherhood is just a way to catch people like the shopkeeper.
"In a way, the world-view of the Party imposed itself most successfully on people incapable of understanding it. They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality, because they never fully grasped the enormity of what was demanded of them...But lack of understanding they remained sane." The Party is right, Ignorance is strength. It helps them control the people. If majority of young rebels are ditzy, selfish, and shallow like Julia, how can there ever be a rebellion? You can't fight unless you understand, and the government knows this.
@Class On page 220 when Winston was talking to Julia he said, "'Do you remember,' he said, 'the thrush that sang to us, that first day at the edge of the wood?' 'He wasn't singing to us,' said Julia. 'He was singing to please himself. Not even that. He was just thinking.'" What do you think the significance of this quote is? Does it remind anyone else of how Julia is acting about rebelling?
Good point. Nobody actually sees them in person, nobody knows how to contact them, nobody knows the full extent of their "group"'s membership and what they do. I suspect big brother has a book he wrote before he rose to power.
@ Ellen--- That is an interesting question. I think that Orwell saw that if opressive governments continued their ways, the future would be very negative. I don't think that the world could undergo such a massive change in 34 years. I don't even think that the governments would become this way in a hundred years. George Orwell may have just written this book to express his anger at the actions of his own government.
Here's a thought to consider: could it be possible that Big Brother and Goldstein are the same person? I mean if you think about it, it would help secure Big Brother's position if he had an enemy counterpart, and it always helps anyone who's challenging the system to have a spy in the system.
@Ellen- Yes, I suppose in that way (as in technologically and setting up everything like that) it might take longer. But I think governmentally, it would just take one person to change the government and the way society is run.
@Willie I think it is the perfect cover for hime. You would never expect a littlle old man who owns a pawn shop to work as a secret spy for Big Brother. I didn't suspect him, and nether did Winston.
@Gabe Yea, she was, but she wasn't rebelling in the serious way. She wasn't doing the serious tasks that the Brotherhood would possibly ask it's members to do. She only rebels in a fun way, through sex.
@Arman- whoah I messed up that last comment I just re-read what I wrote, and I'm like, wait we are talking about goldstein. Sorry I got mixed up with your comment and a past comment. Haha, my bad.
@Arman- Personally, since they have finally gotten caught, it seems as if Julia might break that "all mighty" promise. She just doesn't seem to hold all that information in. What's your opinion on the promise?
@Heidi I think Mr. Charrington needed evidence to prove that the were guilty. Or Mr. Charrinngton like Winston but when he read the book, he didn't like its ideas and themes.
@Kathryn C. That's similar to my question. There are so many similarities to Big Brother and Goldstein. They both control their people in secret, and no one really knows if they are real.
@Elli But think about it this way: The government in 1978 was almost exactly the same as it is now. There were different people, different bills and stuff, sure, but it was the same structure. Now the only thing that has changed is that we have iPods and The Jersey Shore. Seriously. Our government idea is the exact same. I think that the transformation from 1950s world to "1984" would would be way too massive for only 34 years.
@Willie I think that the cover was brilliant. Winston certainly believed him and trusted him easily enough even though he was always so concerned about dying and saying that he is already they dead, I don't think that he even considered that the storekeeper was part of the Thought Police.
@Kathryn How do we know if Big Brother is even a pearson at all? The government needed a symbol so they chose a man to be big brother jow do we know that they didn't make goldstein up. After all WInston said that the same poster has been up for 40 years with the same unchanging face. Why is it not aging?
@Brooke The thrush symbolizes freedom in this society. It has no reason to sing, but it does anyway. The thrush doesn't have a care about anything like the thought police. Julia wants freedom and this quote definitely is related to her opinions.
@ class- When Winston and Julia are talking in the room, Julia has very different thoughts and opinions about the society, hate week, and everything else. During the Two Minutes Hate, she said she had to hold in her laughter. Then, later on, Winston says that they were schooled dozens of years apart. Obviously, they have an age difference. Do you think that age difference is what makes Julia think so differently about the society than Winston? They both want rebellion, but they have differences in their opinions.
@Ellen~ true, the government was basically the same, but we have also developed a lot of things since the 70's. If we had put all that energy from developing things like apple products and reality tv into changing the government, it would have had that result.
@Ellen I agree. Also like with Hitler, people believed in him and what he promised, but it got to a certain point where people knew that it was wrong. I think that would happen with Big Brother. I just can't see it actually happening.
@Class- Again with "the book", so much is happening in it that even today in the real life, most of this has happened that "Oceania" represents the United States in so many ways. Do you think most of the things that happen in this book could actually hapen?
"As a whole the world is more primitive today than it was fifty years ago." page 189. This quote really provokes thought for me. How could the past be more advanced than the present. I geuss I could see that, if a major event changed the course of history.
@ Rick- That kind of coincides with my question. Throughout this entire book, Winston has this weird idea that O'Brien is part of a secret society even though he barely knows him. He also feels like he can trust him. Why?! Same goes with O'Brien to Winston. What if either one of them was a Thought Police in disguise?
@Kathryn I don't think that they are the same person because I don't think that Big Brtoher would want to encourage rebellion against him, however, I think that sending a spy into the group could catch alot of people.
@Kathryn Wow! That is an incredible thought. I think that this could be likely true. He has a good amount of power, but do you think it's enough that he could have the "face" of Big Brother?
I actually think it's going to be the other way around. I think that Julia is going to stay strong to the promise that she made and that will make Winston follow suit. However, you have to remember that if either of them doesn't stick to their word, they will be hated and disowned by the rest of the brother hood and may also jeopardize the brotherhood as a whole.
@Brooke I don't know. I really don't think she is because Winston came up with the hiding place and had been talking with Mr. Charrington before they started meeting there. Also, Julia just seems so afraid of the Thought Police. She hates when Winston says that they are dead.
@ Kathryn- I think that the past could be more advanced than the future. I think that is the whole premise of this story...Big Brother controls everything, and I think that the advancements in the past might have impeded Big Brother from doing that.
@Rick If you live in a society like in the book you would recognize that everyone looks almost the same but if you saw someone that is constantly distressed they are probably distressed for a very real reason. I feel that in a society like that it would be easy to pick out the rebels, they would carry themselves in a very different way.
@Hailey--It is hard to say what really made them different. I think that their different years of schooling definitely is a possibility...but what if it is something greater than that? What if she isn't who she says she is?
@Brooke I don't think that Julia is a double agent because she would have turned in Winston earlier. Julia experienced the brotherhood first hand, and it would only make sense for her to turn Winston in as soon as she found out.
@Blake I think the things that happened in this book could only happen to us if we let it. A nation's power lies with it's people. I think the people in this book let Big Brother come into power, even if they didn't realize it, they didn't stop him.
@Hailey I think that the age difference between the two is definitely a large contributor to the differences in their thinking. I say this because Winston seems to be remembering more from the past than Julia and the past is what is really driving him to contribute into the rebellion. Julia also seems to be a lot less educated that Winston about how society happened. Though she doesn't want to think so, and neither does Winston, but I think that she too is brain washed by the government.
A simile for that would be nuclear war. A major event like that would cause humanity to slide way backwards in progress and time and we would need to recover. 1984's government seems like it deliberately moved humanity backwards to get power.
@Brooke I've been thinking the same thing for a while, but for some reason I feel that she isn't a double agent. I just think she shows too much of a true desire for rebellion.
@ Kathryn C.--- I don't think that Big Brother or Goldstein are real people. Even in this society, I can't imagine someone possesing the power that these characters are said to have. Big Brother may just be a figure created by the party for the citizens to worship. Goldstein may also have been created to provide someone for the citizens to hate. The citizens can blame their pain and suffering on the enemy, Goldstien, instead of Big Brother and the Party.
@Blake Since the book is a political commentary, I think the major powers dont just symbolize what could happen, but also what did happen. There are so many connections to what was going on at the time, and I think the whole book is just a metaphor for everything in the time that the book was written.
@Kathryn I don't think that Big Brother is the same person as Goldstein because the more that I think about it I think that Big Brother actually is just a fictional charater because I view Big Brother as the government in general, not a specific person.
@Taylor I have mixed opinions on that. Big Brother could easily have started out as a single person but as he lost power to more and more people the government decided to keep his image as propaganda. Or he could have just been created from the start.
@Colleen- I definitely agree. There has always been something fishy about the way Julia doesn't care about stuff that she should care about and such. I wouldn't be surprised if she isn't who she said she is.
@Arman- You have a good point, it seems as if Winston may eventually give in, because now he doesn't have anyone to help him (besides the rest of the Brotherhood) but then again he has nothing to lose now that he has lost everything, which could actually help his aim for taking down the Party.
@Class What point is Orwell trying to make by putting the entire world under the same oppressive kind of government? It's interesting that the entire world is under the same kind of rule.
@Klarissa I don't think that Julia has a true drive for rebellion either though. I also don't think that she is a double agent either, but then how do you explain why Julia was beaten up and taken out of the room so much faster than Winston was?
@Taylor--I don't trust him either. I mean, he "trusted" Winston so quickly...how would he know that? He told him everything about Brotherhood without hesitation. I think that he is setting up Winston.
@ class- In a magazine the other day, I saw a picture of North Koreans crying because of the death of Kim Jong-el. But, the caption noticed that as the photographers got farther and farther away, the wailing and crying got less and less. They had to cry because if they didn't, they would be punished. I feel like this is what a lot of people in Big Brother's society are like.
I definitely think that because Julia was born and raised in this society her goals are much shallower, for two reasons. One, she can't have escaped the clutches of influence of her surroundings. The society strikes me as very petty, although in a much different manner than that of Fahrenheit 451. Two, she knows nothing else. Winston has some shadow of a memory of what things used to be like to compare his present to. Julia must have absolutely no sense of time or difference to her life. It makes me pity her in a way, despite her irritating-ness
Winston has said many times that their only hope lies with the proles. So far, they haven't played any role in the story. I don't see how they could do anything to affect the plot now.
@Drew I think that by putting everything under the same rule than that causes less conflict for rebellion because everone knows the same and nothing different.
@Brooke Maybe it was easier for them to do that because she's younger ans she's a women. You never know, they could hold things more towards her because she was part of the Anti-sex league - and look where she went with that. Winston wasn't part of that.
@Hailey That's a great connection. I also think that is really how this society in "1984" is like. They do what the government says to stay out of trouble.
@ Taylor B.--- We can't know wheter or not O'Brian works for the government. How can we know? It seems like the government is something that the citizens know nothing about.
@ class- When Julia and Winston meet O'Brien at his house, and he asks them the questions, they say yes to each one. I am so flabbergasted by this! They are saying yes to putting their lives on the line when we haven't seen a ton of rebellion from them. Sure, we've seen them rebel by having sex when they're not supposed to, but I think that's petty compared to what O'Brien is asking them to do. What are your thoughts on them eagerly accepting the challenge?
@Hailey I agree with you. Big Brother and the government are forcing everybody to hate on the war and making them think Eurasia or Eastasia is the enemy, (although neither side really wars or gets anywhere) when actually, Big Brother is the enemy. The government is forcing them to feel how they do, just like in Korea.
@Klarissa I kind of like O'Brien just because of how secretive he is and what a leader he comes across as. However, I liked Mr. Charrington but he turned out to be part of the thought police. You never know what people are really up to, especially in that society. I'm so glad I'm not living in that because I wouldn't know who I could and couldn't trust!
@Klarissa But wouldn't it be easier for them to hurt the older person that has more knowledge about the past. But wouldn't they then also have to hold accountable the members of the inner party that consented to what she was doing with them? She didn't just have sex with Winston, it was with members of the much more respected people in the society.
@Blake I don't believe that all of this stuff could actually happen, but I believe that parts of it could definitely turn out to be reality. From little things like why we drive on a parkway and park on a driveway (the blackwhite concept) to larger ideas such as the fact that people in North Korea were forced/tricked into sobbing at Kim Jong-il's funeral, it hauntingly resembles bits and pieces of 1984.
@class- Do you think Big Brother is multiple people NOT at the same time? They say they don't know when he was born but he will never die. Is it possible that Big Brother is just a succession of people that are underneath the same name, Big Brother? I was just struck by that.
@ Inner Circle--- Looking at the children of this government and how they are so loyal to Big Brother, how do you think the future will be when these kids are adults? What will the government be like?
@inner circle(Mike) - You made an interesting connection with North Korea's leader claiming his sports feats. It shows Orwell's predictions are partly evident today.
@class- When they are talking about atomic bombs in the book and how they store them up so the people are always worried that they will use them, I feel like Big Brother operates the same way. They threaten them with these things that they can do, just so that the civilians will always be worried.
@ Hailey I think they are just wnating to be a part of the rebellion that they are willing to do anything. What really shocks me is how people in this society don't value life. O'Brien said that they had to be ready to murder 30 million people in 3 seconds. How could you do that?!
Wow. Who would've thought that Mr. Charrington would be one of the Thought Police? I geuss you could see it coming because Winston's and Julia's situtation seemed too good to be true.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think about Mr. Charrington being a member of the Thought Police?
@KathrynC--I loved how Orwell mentioned many times that Winston knew he would get caught, but it didn't happen until this point. It caught me off guard.
ReplyDeleteDO you think Goldstein will play a major part in the last section of 1984? What about O'Brien. Both of them appeared for a short section and then dissappeared again.
ReplyDelete@Kathryn- I definitely agree. I was shocked but when I thought about it, they definitely had it coming. Now I'm interested to see what will happen afterward. Obviously they won't get vaporized or else the book couldn't go on...so what happens??
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think is the significance of having the names of each of the chapters of Goldstein's as the "moto" that Big Brother has put in place?
@Kathryn~ I knew that something bad had to happen to them but I didn't think it was Charrington, of all people.
ReplyDelete@Katheryn
ReplyDeleteI was actually really surprised. I had suspicions that someone was part of the Thought Police. I think it was bound to happen because there is no way in that kind of government that they could get away with violating so many crimes.
@Reid
ReplyDeleteIt was surprising to find out he was a member of the Though Police but I agree with Kathryn because Winton's and Julia's relationship seemed too good to actually happen.
@class
ReplyDeleteJulia started to bother me in that she isn't quite as into the idea of the Brotherhood as Winston. I wonder if she's only going along with it because she wants to please Winston and thinks that would be best for their relationship.
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteYa, I guess they didn't see that one coming. But on the other hand it doesn't suprise me, because at this point it's hard to know who to believe.
@Casey
ReplyDeleteI know what you mean. She seems to be a side character now. Like when they were talking to O'Brien, she didn't contribute to the conversation and I don't know if she really wants to be in the Brotherhood.
@Class Do you think that Winston will ever see Julia again?
ReplyDelete@Kathryn--I almost feel like O'Brien might be setting them up. There is little information about Brotherhood (which is to protect the members) but because of that it is very easy to turn against Winston.
ReplyDelete@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI'm honestly not really sure if they will make much of a reappearance in the book since there are so many secrets of the Brotherhood and how O'Brien said that basically now Winston and Julia are pretty much on their own except for the missions that they will receive that aren't even going to be personally given to them from O'Brien
@class- During Hate Week, the book talks about how this picture of a soldier had been plastered all over the walls...outnumbering even the portraits of Big Brother. Portraits of Big Brother?! Are these literal portraits (as in a head shot) of Big Brother? Do these people know what Big Brother looks like?
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think of Julia's character? Personally, I find her kind of annoying. She never seems interested in the true rebellion, she just likes acting like she is resisting the government.
@Vanessa~ actually, I think its the opposite. I don't think Julia really cares about their relationship but she wants what's best for her.
ReplyDeleteI was surprised at how quickly Winston agreed to join the Brotherhood. I know he loves and shares their beliefs, but on page 176, O'Brien says, "you will work, be cauht, confess, and die. Those are the only results you will ever see."
ReplyDeleteThat would make me hesitant to join this group.
@Reid
ReplyDeleteI thought it was a big change because they all had such a perfect situation but, it doesn't work that well in a book talking about how threatened society is by a government
@Ellen- I'm not sure! I was thinking the same thing when he said "that was the last he ever saw of Julia". I'm not sure if that is true, but at the same time, I can see the story going on without Julia.
ReplyDelete@Green Electronics?
ReplyDeleteI think Julia is selfish. She only really worries about herself.
@ Reid--- I was actually surprised when I found out that Mr. Charrington was a member of the thought police. He seemed like a genuinely kind and understanding man. Finding out that this man belonged to the government proved anyone could be a member of the thought police. It seems like there is no safe place for a rebellion to begin.
ReplyDelete@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI don't think that we will see O'Brien and Goldstein again just because of how secretive the Brotherhood is. Instead of just giving Winston the book, O'Brien sent people to give it to him.
@ Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI was right in suspecting Mr. Charrington. What do you think will happen to them now?
@Vanessa
ReplyDeleteYa, I feel the same way as you, I really don't think she cares that much. Honestly, she really makes me mad.
@Drew- I agree about Julia. She is way too interested in Winston and way too disinterested in Big Brother and the Brotherhood and the book and everything. I feel like at first she really was interested in rebelling and now that they have and nothing really exciting has happened, then she's just over it.
ReplyDelete@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI think that it is just a picture of someone so that the people will recognize him. The portrait might not actually be Big Brother, because we don't know if he is a single person or a group of people. But the idea of Big Brother is a lot more powerful if there is a face to go along with the name, so I think that is why there are "portraits" of him.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteThis government seems very strict, I don't think that they will see each other anytime soon.
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ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteDo you really think it's one big illusion? I think the past is an illusion but the present is very real. People are being treated unfairly and I think there is an actual war going on.
@Class
ReplyDeleteI didn't expect that the storekeeper was going to be a member of the thought police but it didn't surprise me that he was because he knew about them and it makes sense that someone who would have a room like that would be lying. This room may have been used multiple times to catch people like Winston and Julia, and I just think they were foolish to trust someone they didn't know to keep their secret.
@ Reid
ReplyDeleteI admit I was a bit surprised at Mr. Charrington being a member of the thought police, but it's honestly not all too unrealistic. The question I have is why did Mr. Charrington wait so long to make his move?
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI don't think Winston will see Julia again. I don't think that the government think it is safe to allow that to happen. If the two come together, they would be stronger.
@Drew
ReplyDeleteI also find Julia really annoying, she doesn't really seem to be caring about the rebellion as a whole for changing the society as to what she views as better, but instead she is just taking all of these minor little breaking of laws and trying to live her own life to the fullest. Even when it came to Winston reading the book, she didn't really care about it, she fell asleep even. She's quite different from Winston and I agree with what he said "Your only a rebel from the waist down." I think that really does fit her character.
@Rick~ Well, I think that is what Winston thinks will happen anyway. Remember in the last discussion when we talked about how Winston refers to himself as the walking dead? He knows that will happen anyway.
ReplyDelete@Baergan- I like that idea and agree with it. I just found it interesting because who would they choose? I think most people would have a certain picture of Big Brother in their head and they'd need to choose someone powerful looking because Big Brother is portrayed as such a powerful figure.
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI doubt it. I think that the government is too harsh and controling to let something like that happen.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI think after she realized how serious the Brotherhood and the rebellion were, she didn't want to resist anymore.
@Rick
ReplyDeleteWinston and Julia have already realized they are ready to commit suicide by being together in 1984's society, meaning he has already told himself tat he's prepared for that.
@Hailey, yeah I agree. On the other hand, she could be the catalyst in that Winston might try and save her... Or something.
ReplyDelete@Elli
ReplyDeleteThen why do you think Julia is going along with Winston in joining the brotherhood? It doesn't seem like she's too enthusiastic about it.
@Reid I agree with you. Julia doesn't seem interested in anything about Winston. She seems only interested in herself.
ReplyDelete@class- Okay, I'm gonna bring this up again. Why do you think Winston and Julia are so convinced they're going to die? Now that they have been caught by the Thought Police there is a large possibility that they will, but I don't understand why before when there was no sign of the Thought Police they were so pessimistic. They could at least be hopeful.
ReplyDelete@Drew
ReplyDeleteI agree. She definitely annoys me. She doesnt seem to care about anything. She does not care about her and Winston's relationship, and she doesn't care about the Brotherhood. She just wants to rebel and have fun, but she isn't passionate about it.
@Drew
ReplyDeleteI think Julia is selfish. She only worries about herself and how an issue will effect her and nobody else. Julia was worried about what would happen to her and not Winston when the thought police arrived.
How does the Brotherhood do anything? The location of the leader (Goldstein) and it's target (Big Brother) are unknown. And, it's hard to become a member and even if you manage to join, you don't know who else is a member as well. You could think you are talking to another member, dislodge some secret info and get turned in for thoughtcrime.
ReplyDelete@Drew~ I agree about Hailey's comment. Julia thinks she is strong and rebellious but she does not realize how much work it actually takes.
ReplyDelete@ Outer Circle
ReplyDeleteWhat is your opinion on what Goldstein's book has to say about Big Brother and the government? What about the way that Winston was describing the truth of what the government is doing as far as getting rid of any true records of the events that happen?
@Class This book was written in 1950ish. This story takes place in 1984. Do you think it's possible for the world to undergo such a massive overhaul in only 34 years?
ReplyDelete@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI think that thew government has made up the pictures of Big Brother. I think people make images of Big Brother based off of emotion and feelings too.
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI agree. I think Julia is only interested in rebelling through sex. When it comes to killing and losing her life, Julia is scared and not interested. I think she wants to avoid the topic of the actual rebellion and keep having sex.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI don't think that they posters and portraits of Big Brother are actually of a real person, but instead perhaps a made up face in order to make the common citizen think that they truly are always being watched by someone. Which is true that they are, but Big Brother seems to be standing for the government and not just one person.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI just think its because they have seen what happens to those who disobey, so they just know that they will die. They know that no one lives after that, so they don't have any hope whatsoever.
@Julia- I agree! Why would Winston and Julia believe the storekeeper when he said the Party could not see them in the room? He is a stranger!
ReplyDelete@ Drew--- Julia is a very frusterating figure in the book. She is very suspicious. I can't tell if she truly is against government, or if she just says so in order to connect with Winston. I don't think that Winston feels true love for Julia.
ReplyDelete@Drew
ReplyDeleteI agree, and she is becoming very annoying. She seems really fake, and she is all talk. She is using Winston and putting him in danger, and though she says she knows they will be caught at some point, I dont think she realizes how horrible it is going to be and I think in reality she thinks she is invincible.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteThey thought they were going to die because the government has SO much power that the average person would go to the Thought Police. There was always the immanent threat that someone had seen them at one point.
@Rick
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, I would be the same way. However, I think that Winston has had a hunger to rebel for awhile so he jumped at the opportunity. Also, the brotherhood was just a rumor at one point so he must have been excited to see that it actually exists.
@Rick Exactly. What exactly are they accomplishing if all of them are just dying? I think that was included in the story to portray Winston and Julia's sheer desperation for something- anything- to cling on to.
ReplyDelete@Baergen
ReplyDeleteI agree with the fact that Julia is not passionate about the resistance. However, I do think she cares about Winston. I think that her love for Winston (though it is a really weird relationship) is the only way she is willing to rebel.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI completely think that a society can change that much in such a short time. Look at how Hitler came into power, that took only a short time for everyone to really change and get accustomed to how he is dictating over the people under his control.
@Drew
ReplyDeleteI think Julia is scared like you said, but I think that her way of dealing with it is through her relationship with Winston. When that's taken away, she'll put on a mask of rebellion.
@Ellen- I definitely do. I think one thing in history can totally change the course of the future. I think if we had a World War III today, then in 15 years, our world would be so different. Look at World War I. It decimated German economy and that was one of the reasons we we had a World War II. History can change quickly.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think of Mr. Charrington's thought police cover as an old shopkeeper with a boring life?
@Willie Oh yeah! Oh my gosh my mind was working in billions. Oops!
ReplyDelete@Ellen,
ReplyDeleteI don't believe this kind of overhaul happens over a couple decades. I think Orwell might have chosen to make his date so soon to emphasize his point, at how quickly he felt we were headed in this direction.
@class
ReplyDeleteDo you see any similarities between Goldstein and Big Brother? Both of them have never been seen in person and control their people secretly and under cover.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI was wondering the same thing. I mean, it seems like such a huge change in only 34 years. Especially the changing of history, I think that it would take longer for the information to stop being told. The people who lived through the time before Big Brother would still be alive, it just doesn't make sense.
What do you guys think of on page 199 it talks abouot how war used to be between two groups, but now it's between a ruler and it's people. How is this being shown now in the book?
ReplyDelete@Ellen~ I think that it is definitely possible for a society to change in 30 years. We have changed a lot in 30 years, just in a (depending on how you think about it), more or less positive direction.
ReplyDelete@Arman
ReplyDeleteTuff question. I think there is a lot Goldstein was predicting for the future. I think he also wanted to inform people with his book. As to getting rid of the past, I think through history people have triend many times to erase the past. Nobody wants to dwell in the past, but rather live in the future.
@Drew
ReplyDeleteWell wasn't Julia rebelling before she even met Winston? The first time they snuck off Winston asked Julia if she had ever done that kind of thing before and she told him she had done it tons of times and he wasn't the first.
@Hailey even to set up the thought police, and telescreens EVERYWHERE and a new language and a whole new government system and everything? I mean, America has been around for 200 years and we are still developing our government.
ReplyDelete@Rick
ReplyDeleteIn response to your comment to Ellen... I agree. I think Orwell was showing that if things go in the totalitarian way that Russia and Germany were going, eventually (and possibly very quickly), the whole world would be controlled by that.
@class- "the book" brings so much incorperation into the understanding of why things are the way they are. Why do you think no one wants to let that information loose? How do the Brotherhood follow all of this information anyway?
ReplyDelete@Ellen I think that this large of a change wouldn't be likley, however, many things in society can change very quickly. Just look at technology for example, it has evolved so much in just 50n years.
ReplyDelete@ Ellen
ReplyDeleteIt is very possible for such a drastic change to happen in 34 years. Goverments have had change by revolts in less thann a month. Look at Libya and Egypt. After WWI there was the Great Depression which led to drastic governmental changes, I bet Orwell thought their was gonna be a worse form of the Great Depression after WWII.
@Inner Circle~ you mentioned that this reminded you of Hitler and the information that was being filtered. Keep in mind that people in Germany did know what was going on, they just didn't do anything about it.
ReplyDelete@Drew- Yea, I was wondering about Goldstein. Who is he?? He is just like Big Brother in the fact that no one sees him and to me, he seems almost like a guy made up just so people in the Brotherhood would think there is a powerful person heading it.
ReplyDelete@Baergen Exactly, it just seems like such an extreme change for 34 years.
ReplyDelete@ Blake
ReplyDeleteWhat is your opinion on the promises that Julia and Winston had to make to be part of the Brotherhood? Do you think that they will be tested on their dedication level and what will they do? Will they do as they promised or back down and deny everything?
@Drew
ReplyDeleteI think it is very hard to tell if either of them are real or if Goldstein is good, if the Brotherhood is just a way to catch people like the shopkeeper.
"In a way, the world-view of the Party imposed itself most successfully on people incapable of understanding it. They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality, because they never fully grasped the enormity of what was demanded of them...But lack of understanding they remained sane." The Party is right, Ignorance is strength. It helps them control the people. If majority of young rebels are ditzy, selfish, and shallow like Julia, how can there ever be a rebellion? You can't fight unless you understand, and the government knows this.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteOn page 220 when Winston was talking to Julia he said, "'Do you remember,' he said, 'the thrush that sang to us, that first day at the edge of the wood?' 'He wasn't singing to us,' said Julia. 'He was singing to please himself. Not even that. He was just thinking.'" What do you think the significance of this quote is? Does it remind anyone else of how Julia is acting about rebelling?
@Drew
ReplyDeleteGood point. Nobody actually sees them in person, nobody knows how to contact them, nobody knows the full extent of their "group"'s membership and what they do. I suspect big brother has a book he wrote before he rose to power.
@ Ellen--- That is an interesting question. I think that Orwell saw that if opressive governments continued their ways, the future would be very negative. I don't think that the world could undergo such a massive change in 34 years. I don't even think that the governments would become this way in a hundred years. George Orwell may have just written this book to express his anger at the actions of his own government.
ReplyDeleteHere's a thought to consider: could it be possible that Big Brother and Goldstein are the same person? I mean if you think about it, it would help secure Big Brother's position if he had an enemy counterpart, and it always helps anyone who's challenging the system to have a spy in the system.
ReplyDelete@Ellen- Yes, I suppose in that way (as in technologically and setting up everything like that) it might take longer. But I think governmentally, it would just take one person to change the government and the way society is run.
ReplyDelete@Willie
ReplyDeleteI think it is the perfect cover for hime. You would never expect a littlle old man who owns a pawn shop to work as a secret spy for Big Brother. I didn't suspect him, and nether did Winston.
@Gabe
ReplyDeleteYea, she was, but she wasn't rebelling in the serious way. She wasn't doing the serious tasks that the Brotherhood would possibly ask it's members to do. She only rebels in a fun way, through sex.
@Arman- whoah
ReplyDeleteI messed up that last comment
I just re-read what I wrote, and I'm like, wait we are talking about goldstein. Sorry I got mixed up with your comment and a past comment. Haha, my bad.
@Arman- Personally, since they have finally gotten caught, it seems as if Julia might break that "all mighty" promise. She just doesn't seem to hold all that information in. What's your opinion on the promise?
ReplyDelete@Heidi
ReplyDeleteI think Mr. Charrington needed evidence to prove that the were guilty. Or Mr. Charrinngton like Winston but when he read the book, he didn't like its ideas and themes.
@Kathryn C.
ReplyDeleteThat's similar to my question. There are so many similarities to Big Brother and Goldstein. They both control their people in secret, and no one really knows if they are real.
@Elli But think about it this way: The government in 1978 was almost exactly the same as it is now. There were different people, different bills and stuff, sure, but it was the same structure. Now the only thing that has changed is that we have iPods and The Jersey Shore. Seriously. Our government idea is the exact same. I think that the transformation from 1950s world to "1984" would would be way too massive for only 34 years.
ReplyDelete@Drew
ReplyDeleteExactly. I think that is the only thing she will do.
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ReplyDelete@KathrynC--It is very interesting that you bring that up. It would make sense...it would protect Big Brother and Brotherhood.
ReplyDelete@Willie
ReplyDeleteI think that the cover was brilliant. Winston certainly believed him and trusted him easily enough even though he was always so concerned about dying and saying that he is already they dead, I don't think that he even considered that the storekeeper was part of the Thought Police.
@Kathryn I would agree. You can't be a hero without a villain.
ReplyDelete@Hailey
ReplyDeleteThat's how I feel about Big Brother too. I think he is made up to give the people something to follow.
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteHow do we know if Big Brother is even a pearson at all? The government needed a symbol so they chose a man to be big brother jow do we know that they didn't make goldstein up. After all WInston said that the same poster has been up for 40 years with the same unchanging face. Why is it not aging?
@class - When O'Brien meet Winston, he quickly gave him his adress, without seeming to test Winston in any way. How did O'Brien know to trust Winston?
ReplyDelete@Brooke
ReplyDeleteThe thrush symbolizes freedom in this society. It has no reason to sing, but it does anyway. The thrush doesn't have a care about anything like the thought police. Julia wants freedom and this quote definitely is related to her opinions.
@ class- When Winston and Julia are talking in the room, Julia has very different thoughts and opinions about the society, hate week, and everything else. During the Two Minutes Hate, she said she had to hold in her laughter. Then, later on, Winston says that they were schooled dozens of years apart. Obviously, they have an age difference. Do you think that age difference is what makes Julia think so differently about the society than Winston? They both want rebellion, but they have differences in their opinions.
ReplyDelete@Maggie Hmm..... I agree with that. I think it is probably more symbolic than actually factual.
ReplyDelete@Ellen~ true, the government was basically the same, but we have also developed a lot of things since the 70's. If we had put all that energy from developing things like apple products and reality tv into changing the government, it would have had that result.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you all think about the inner circles conversation of Julia being a double agent?
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI agree. Also like with Hitler, people believed in him and what he promised, but it got to a certain point where people knew that it was wrong. I think that would happen with Big Brother. I just can't see it actually happening.
@Class- Again with "the book", so much is happening in it that even today in the real life, most of this has happened that "Oceania" represents the United States in so many ways. Do you think most of the things that happen in this book could actually hapen?
ReplyDelete"As a whole the world is more primitive today than it was fifty years ago." page 189. This quote really provokes thought for me. How could the past be more advanced than the present. I geuss I could see that, if a major event changed the course of history.
ReplyDelete@Rick
ReplyDeleteO'Brien has likely been watching Winston and knows he's someone who he can trust. He probably is going to move his cover soon anyway.
@ Rick- That kind of coincides with my question. Throughout this entire book, Winston has this weird idea that O'Brien is part of a secret society even though he barely knows him. He also feels like he can trust him. Why?! Same goes with O'Brien to Winston. What if either one of them was a Thought Police in disguise?
ReplyDelete@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI don't think that they are the same person because I don't think that Big Brtoher would want to encourage rebellion against him, however, I think that sending a spy into the group could catch alot of people.
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteWow! That is an incredible thought. I think that this could be likely true. He has a good amount of power, but do you think it's enough that he could have the "face" of Big Brother?
@ Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteHOw do you know that Big Brother is even a real pesrson, not just an invention of the government.
@ Blake
ReplyDeleteI actually think it's going to be the other way around. I think that Julia is going to stay strong to the promise that she made and that will make Winston follow suit. However, you have to remember that if either of them doesn't stick to their word, they will be hated and disowned by the rest of the brother hood and may also jeopardize the brotherhood as a whole.
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI don't know. I really don't think she is because Winston came up with the hiding place and had been talking with Mr. Charrington before they started meeting there. Also, Julia just seems so afraid of the Thought Police. She hates when Winston says that they are dead.
@ Kathryn- I think that the past could be more advanced than the future. I think that is the whole premise of this story...Big Brother controls everything, and I think that the advancements in the past might have impeded Big Brother from doing that.
ReplyDelete@Rick
ReplyDeleteIf you live in a society like in the book you would recognize that everyone looks almost the same but if you saw someone that is constantly distressed they are probably distressed for a very real reason. I feel that in a society like that it would be easy to pick out the rebels, they would carry themselves in a very different way.
@Hailey--It is hard to say what really made them different. I think that their different years of schooling definitely is a possibility...but what if it is something greater than that? What if she isn't who she says she is?
ReplyDelete@Hailey
ReplyDeleteAlso, the same goes for Julia. When she meets Winston she said that she just knew that he was different and against Big Brother.
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Julia is a double agent because she would have turned in Winston earlier. Julia experienced the brotherhood first hand, and it would only make sense for her to turn Winston in as soon as she found out.
@Blake
ReplyDeleteI think the things that happened in this book could only happen to us if we let it. A nation's power lies with it's people. I think the people in this book let Big Brother come into power, even if they didn't realize it, they didn't stop him.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI think that the age difference between the two is definitely a large contributor to the differences in their thinking. I say this because Winston seems to be remembering more from the past than Julia and the past is what is really driving him to contribute into the rebellion. Julia also seems to be a lot less educated that Winston about how society happened. Though she doesn't want to think so, and neither does Winston, but I think that she too is brain washed by the government.
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteA simile for that would be nuclear war. A major event like that would cause humanity to slide way backwards in progress and time and we would need to recover. 1984's government seems like it deliberately moved humanity backwards to get power.
@Taylor B.
ReplyDeleteWe don't know that. We are just like the citizens.... we are in the dark.
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking the same thing for a while, but for some reason I feel that she isn't a double agent. I just think she shows too much of a true desire for rebellion.
@ Kathryn C.--- I don't think that Big Brother or Goldstein are real people. Even in this society, I can't imagine someone possesing the power that these characters are said to have. Big Brother may just be a figure created by the party for the citizens to worship. Goldstein may also have been created to provide someone for the citizens to hate. The citizens can blame their pain and suffering on the enemy, Goldstien, instead of Big Brother and the Party.
ReplyDelete@Blake
ReplyDeleteSince the book is a political commentary, I think the major powers dont just symbolize what could happen, but also what did happen. There are so many connections to what was going on at the time, and I think the whole book is just a metaphor for everything in the time that the book was written.
@Class
ReplyDeleteI don't trust O'Brian, how do we know that O'Brian isn't working for the government?
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Big Brother is the same person as Goldstein because the more that I think about it I think that Big Brother actually is just a fictional charater because I view Big Brother as the government in general, not a specific person.
@Taylor
ReplyDeleteI have mixed opinions on that. Big Brother could easily have started out as a single person but as he lost power to more and more people the government decided to keep his image as propaganda. Or he could have just been created from the start.
@Colleen- I definitely agree. There has always been something fishy about the way Julia doesn't care about stuff that she should care about and such. I wouldn't be surprised if she isn't who she said she is.
ReplyDelete@Hailey - You're right. After all, Winston trusted Mr. Charrington just like he trusted O'Brien. And we all now see how that worked out for him!
ReplyDelete@Arman- You have a good point, it seems as if Winston may eventually give in, because now he doesn't have anyone to help him (besides the rest of the Brotherhood) but then again he has nothing to lose now that he has lost everything, which could actually help his aim for taking down the Party.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat point is Orwell trying to make by putting the entire world under the same oppressive kind of government? It's interesting that the entire world is under the same kind of rule.
@Klarissa
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Julia has a true drive for rebellion either though. I also don't think that she is a double agent either, but then how do you explain why Julia was beaten up and taken out of the room so much faster than Winston was?
@Kathryn~ I think that because people have focused so much energy into keeping the population under control that they didn't prosper anymore.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteSo what is everyone's opinion on O'Brien. We've talked about Goldstein, but what about O'Brien?
@Taylor--I don't trust him either. I mean, he "trusted" Winston so quickly...how would he know that? He told him everything about Brotherhood without hesitation. I think that he is setting up Winston.
ReplyDelete@Taylor
ReplyDeleteWe can't. He could be lying to get Winston into a governmental trap.
@ class- In a magazine the other day, I saw a picture of North Koreans crying because of the death of Kim Jong-el. But, the caption noticed that as the photographers got farther and farther away, the wailing and crying got less and less. They had to cry because if they didn't, they would be punished. I feel like this is what a lot of people in Big Brother's society are like.
ReplyDelete@ Hailey
ReplyDeleteI definitely think that because Julia was born and raised in this society her goals are much shallower, for two reasons. One, she can't have escaped the clutches of influence of her surroundings. The society strikes me as very petty, although in a much different manner than that of Fahrenheit 451. Two, she knows nothing else. Winston has some shadow of a memory of what things used to be like to compare his present to. Julia must have absolutely no sense of time or difference to her life. It makes me pity her in a way, despite her irritating-ness
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ReplyDeleteWinston has said many times that their only hope lies with the proles. So far, they haven't played any role in the story. I don't see how they could do anything to affect the plot now.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@Drew I think that by putting everything under the same rule than that causes less conflict for rebellion because everone knows the same and nothing different.
ReplyDelete@Brooke
ReplyDeleteMaybe it was easier for them to do that because she's younger ans she's a women. You never know, they could hold things more towards her because she was part of the Anti-sex league - and look where she went with that. Winston wasn't part of that.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteThat's a great connection. I also think that is really how this society in "1984" is like. They do what the government says to stay out of trouble.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteIs that what the military is like in 1984? If the government is perpetually at war, there must be something like a forced draft.
@ Taylor B.--- We can't know wheter or not O'Brian works for the government. How can we know? It seems like the government is something that the citizens know nothing about.
ReplyDelete@ class- When Julia and Winston meet O'Brien at his house, and he asks them the questions, they say yes to each one. I am so flabbergasted by this! They are saying yes to putting their lives on the line when we haven't seen a ton of rebellion from them. Sure, we've seen them rebel by having sex when they're not supposed to, but I think that's petty compared to what O'Brien is asking them to do. What are your thoughts on them eagerly accepting the challenge?
ReplyDelete@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. Big Brother and the government are forcing everybody to hate on the war and making them think Eurasia or Eastasia is the enemy, (although neither side really wars or gets anywhere) when actually, Big Brother is the enemy. The government is forcing them to feel how they do, just like in Korea.
@Klarissa
ReplyDeleteI kind of like O'Brien just because of how secretive he is and what a leader he comes across as. However, I liked Mr. Charrington but he turned out to be part of the thought police. You never know what people are really up to, especially in that society. I'm so glad I'm not living in that because I wouldn't know who I could and couldn't trust!
@Klarissa
ReplyDeleteBut wouldn't it be easier for them to hurt the older person that has more knowledge about the past. But wouldn't they then also have to hold accountable the members of the inner party that consented to what she was doing with them? She didn't just have sex with Winston, it was with members of the much more respected people in the society.
@Blake I don't believe that all of this stuff could actually happen, but I believe that parts of it could definitely turn out to be reality. From little things like why we drive on a parkway and park on a driveway (the blackwhite concept) to larger ideas such as the fact that people in North Korea were forced/tricked into sobbing at Kim Jong-il's funeral, it hauntingly resembles bits and pieces of 1984.
ReplyDelete@class- Do you think Big Brother is multiple people NOT at the same time? They say they don't know when he was born but he will never die. Is it possible that Big Brother is just a succession of people that are underneath the same name, Big Brother? I was just struck by that.
ReplyDelete@ Inner Circle--- Looking at the children of this government and how they are so loyal to Big Brother, how do you think the future will be when these kids are adults? What will the government be like?
ReplyDelete@inner circle(Mike) - You made an interesting connection with North Korea's leader claiming his sports feats. It shows Orwell's predictions are partly evident today.
ReplyDelete@Vanessa
ReplyDeleteI don't trust O'Brien either. I just have a gut feeling on this.
@class- When they are talking about atomic bombs in the book and how they store them up so the people are always worried that they will use them, I feel like Big Brother operates the same way. They threaten them with these things that they can do, just so that the civilians will always be worried.
ReplyDelete@ Hailey--- I think that both of them already know that they were going to be caught. They wanted to accomplish all the rebellion that they could.
ReplyDelete@ Hailey
ReplyDeleteI think they are just wnating to be a part of the rebellion that they are willing to do anything. What really shocks me is how people in this society don't value life. O'Brien said that they had to be ready to murder 30 million people in 3 seconds. How could you do that?!
@Haily I think that Big Brother is something that is figurative in this book.
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