I feel Winston changed a lot from the beginning of the book to the end of the book. At the beginning although he thought and was not brain washed he was restless and mad most of the time, he just wasn't happy. At the end of the book even though he had been brain wash Winston seemed more calm about his thoughts and actions. What are your thoughts on how he changed?
@Inner Circle The mask was put onto his face, but the rats drove Winston to give in and give up the last thing he had held onto from the party; Julia. And that's why O'Brian didn't open the cage.
Do you think Winston would rather have Julia torchered instead? Did he believe O'Brien when he told Winston Julia turned on him or did he just want to say anything to not come in contact with the rats? (Anne)
I have to put this out there, this was one of the most disappointing and stupid endings I have ever read, but if you think about it, couldn't you see this was going to happen all along?
Tram- I think he might trust O'Brien because of his original thoughts. They Ministry also probably chose to have O'Brien interview people because he looks trustworthy.
@Tram He feels that connection to O'Brien because he was the only person Winston felt he could talk and communicate with that understood him, weather O'Brien was being his friend or foe.
@Paige I think the party keeps tabs on him and then got a copy of the photograph. Maybe they keep records of the people they kill for future referance if there are similar people that go against them.
@ Anne The book kept talking about if you are in serious pain you don't really care about anything else except the pain stopping for you. I agree with that slightly because it's true, even if you don't wish pain on others, if your really hurt you would rather it be someone else than you.
@Anne Obviously he would rather them torture her than himself. He didn't believe O'Brien, but he was so afraid of rats that he would sacrifice Julia to save himself.
@Paige Yes, I think that that they are searched because they do not want any of the already existing stuff to be burned along with things that "didn't happen."
@Class Do you think that Julia ever loved Winston or do you think that she just loved that she could be rebellious with him, because that is what she wants to do?
@Tram I think Winston trusted O'Brien before this so much because he didn't really meet people against the party before him so he thinks if he knew about pgroups against the party he must also be against the party to spread the news about them. (Anne)
@Paige I think that the Party has more than one document that can be edited. They change history by editing the documents by people like Winston manually changing them, but I don't think that the document that Winston put into the memory holes are the only copy. I think it would be wise to secretly hold all documents in their original draft to be able to use against the people, and in situations like Winston is in now.
@Paige They had been watching him for 7 years so they saw him find the picture and his reaction and might have saved it in case they would need it against him in the future, or maybe they even planted it for him to find in the first place.
@Lauren I think that she only loved him to rebel against the party, because they never really talked or had a relationship. There wasn't anything there except for sexuality and a common view, which is nothing to base a relationship off of.
@Trevor I think that Julia had a cut on her face after she was in Room 101 because they were trying to damage one thing she cared about. She cared deeply about her appearance.
On page 166 in 1984, Winston and Julia are having a discussion about how the Party can never truly win over them because they could only change what they say, not what they believe, but in the end it seems that because of O'Brien and everything that happened while in the Ministry of Love, the Party actually managed to get inside Winstons head enough that they actually did change what he believed. ~Kathleen
While Winston is being tortured, O'Brien tells him that he himself collaborated in writing the "book" that O'Brien gave him. Did he really write it or is he lying? if he did write it, then does the Brotherhood actually exist or is it just a trap for people who are against the Party?
@Anne I think it was all those benefactors. He might of not even thought about it when he said, it just came out of his mouth because he was scared and everything just caused him to want to say it more. Kill her instead of me. Fear bought the better of him.
@Lauren I Think Julia never loved Winston, she loved the idea that what they were doing rebelled against Big Brother. I think she felt more of a connection between them that the other men she had slept with but I don't think she ever truly loved him. (Anne)
@Class When Winston was in his cell and he was walking and building up strength, I have heard about inmates at prisons doing push-ups and sit-ups because they had nothing else to do in their cell.Do you think the author got this idea from hearing about it? Also What do you think of Winston getting a "make-over", going from fragile and weak to strong and healthy?
Colleen- I think O'Brien was at first a conspirator against the party then he probably got caught and they changed him to catch people. O'Brien probably actually did write the book but I doubt the Brotherhood ever existed.
@Class Do you think that Winston truly loves Big Brother at the end of the book like it says he does, or do you think that Winston is so brainwashed and numb from everything that has happened to him at the Ministry that anything sounds good/right to him now? Do you think that because of the way he feels he will go along with anything, like what O'Brien tells him is right, such as 2+2=5 and "Freedom is slavery?"
@Paige I think that it is possible that Parson's daughter turned him in to show her power, but also possibly to get a reward for doing something "for the Party/Big Brother". It seems that children would be celebrated for doing something like that. Parsons is so enthusiastic about Big Brother that I think it would be impossible for him to say such things.
Outer circle--Let's get philosophical. If you think about it, our thoughts are the only think we truly have control of. How does this play into the final pages with O'Brien and what he is able to do.
@Melissa I think that he just wanted to get some things off his mind and relieve some stress. Excercising and working out is a great way to relieve stress.
Melissa- I think they keep the criminals in the cell long enough to make them feel a lot better and then when they're shot, they'll miss their life that much more. It also sends a message to other people that you are better under Big Brother's care than before.
@Paige Supposedly "3" is the most beautiful number. It shows up throughout literature and in mathematics. This is probably why it was used, no other significance.
@mmoritz Winston is finally defeated in the final pages because O'Brien could tell what he was thinking, so Winston had no control of anything after his thoughts were no longer private.
I don't think that the Brotherhood exist because O'Brien wrote the book, so there is no evidence, there might have been one in the beginning when there where more people around before the party had taken over,but the party must have ended it.
@Inner Circle Their could be an argument for and an argument against whether or not the party created the Brotherhood or not. On the one hand, it would make sense if they did, because it would pick out anyone that had any doubts in them, so they can either fix the problem or get rid of them altogether. But on the other hand, I find it hard to believe that even though their government is so messed up, their isn't any organazation that is trying to take it down. Kathleen
@Mmoritz You are right, with Winston's observation of "If he says he is going to float and I believe he is going to float, he will float." He was able to trick himself into believing in anything.
Class- If Big Brother thinks that they have control over the past, why do they bother to teach it in schools? It changes so quickly that their learning is quickly outdated.
At Sam, I think that they truly thought they loved each other but it wasn't really love.Their urge to have a rebellion and their lust for each other created them to believe in their "love" for each other.
It is very difficult to change your own mind. For example your favorite sports team is playing and you know they will lose. It is still extremely difficult to accept that. You still cheer for them and make yourself believe they will win even thought you know they are gonna lose. It's kind of like Winston trying to see 5 fingers.
I think that when O'Brien is finally able to control Winston's thoughts, Winston has nothing left and has no control at all anymore, which leads to the fact that Winston says that he loves Big Brother at the end of the book. Once O'Brien has control of Winston's thoughts, he can make Winston say/think/do anything he wants him to.
@mmoritz The end of the book confronted this idea that our thoughts are our own and can't be taken from us, and I believe that they can't. The book suggests that there might be a way to break people to the point that anything in that person can be controlled. The final pages of this book fought the idea thata a person's thoughts are their own.
@Eli I think that Winston found the questions more awful than the beatings because he could gradually become used to the physical pain, but when they were inside his head he ended up saying things he didn't believe and doing all sorts of things he was against. He may have felt himself changing and was completely against that. When they were beating Winston, he was more of a martyr, suffering for his cause.
O'Brien refereed to Winston as the "last man" but what is he the last man of? Dose it mean the last non-believer, was it figurative, or did it refer to something else?
Class- Why does everybody assume that O'Brien wrote the book? He can say that he wrote it but may not have, O'Brien also thinks that he can float so he may be delusional.
@Paige So then people have something to believe, to fill up their minds instead of letting them wonder what used to happen. If people start to wonder what used to be instead of "knowing" what used to be, there could be more rebels.
@Natalie Because at that point of pain and suffering, his mind is changed to who will stop the pain? He saw O'Brien as the man that stopped the pain and suffering.
@Paige Maybe they just have history to give themselves something to do and keep the kids busy. Nothing else really has a point, why should the schooling? Plus, it seems that they rely upon part of it to make everyone feel that their life is better than how it would have been before. Kathleen
@Jayla O'Brien may have been suggesting to Winston that without the Party he was alone but if he joined and became part of it then there would be more people with him. I'm sure that there are many more non-believers in Oceania, but they are discouraged from talking to one another so none of them have any idea who each other are.
@Melissa I think that it must be electricity or something but I don't know whether or not his spine could have actually snapped or if it just felt like that?
@Paige I think that everyone assumes that O'Brien wrote the book because he said he did, and also because it seems to be the obvious choice, as O'Brien could have written the book for people like Winston to read so that the Party could arrest them, although someone else truly may have written it.
@Jayla O'Brian referred to Winston as the last man because he wants to drive out all of Winston's courage. Winston views what the party is doing as eliminating what makes humans human, their thought. By calling him the last man, O'Brian tells Winston that everyone else has been taken care of that thinks for themselves and that if the party could get everyone else, they can positively get Winston. It's a tool to hurt Winston.
@Paige The people don't think for themselves so when the party teaches them one thing they will believe them, and if they change that, they will listen and believe whatever "Big brother" tells them no matter what.
In the book, the party can get rid of people in such a way that it looks like they never existed in the first place if they give them reason too. Considering both Winston and supposedly O'Brien have given them reason to at one point of another, maybe they consider that as meaning that they don't really exist. They are too irrelevent. Kathleen
@Melissa Maybe the dial somehow taps into Winston's nerves and brain to make him feel as if his body is coming apart. It could be electric as Trevor said too.
@Eli--what point in the conclusion do you seen that supports the idea that Winston still have control over his own thoughts? Is it the illusion of being shot? Is it his wish to die? Because in the very end, he seems to embrace his brainwash-of loving Big Brother--or was it all a farce?
@Jack I don't think Winston or the reader will ever know who she was but I don't think she was his mom. I think that it was just coincidental that she was the age that she was.
@Jayla By O'Brien calling him the last man, he was saying two things. One, that no one else out there is with his cause, and two, he has old outdated ideas and when he is gone no one else will continue to fight for freedom.
I think Big Brother is a group of people and when needed people are replaced that are already high up so they trust him so Big Brother can never die. (Anne)
@Jack I think the woman was just a random person caught by the thought police and they didn't know each other. He probably wanted to apologize for his actions as a child so he wanted to find his mom and just started thinking of "maybe I could be related to her, or her, or her"
@Mrs. Moritz In the end, O'brien knows and understands Winston's thoughts. Winston still thinks for his own until O'brien breaks him down and tears him apart. Winston starts to become careless with his thoughts and life itself. Winston had his thoughts controlled at the end so theory that our thoughts are the only thing we control is not really true.
@Class How do you think that the Party originated? How do you think that it came into being and has garnished so much power that now Inner Party members like O'Brien are able to do the things that they do?
@Sam It could be like our system where there is maybe a group of men who love big brother and they vote for laws, but I agree there needs to be someone above others to be able to control the group. It's different from ours because there is no democracy and the people don't vote for the men at the top.
@Sam G I think that Julia betrayed Winston much faster than he betrayed her because I think she was mentally much weaker and didn't care about Winston as much as he cared about her.
@mmoritz It seems to me that the rats drove Winston to the point of leaving his thoughts behind because of his fear. If you can control a person through fear, they will do anything for you. At that point I think Winston lost his fight. He embraces the party because of his fear. I don't know if deep down he holds his beliefs close to him, but if he does he has no means of speaking him because he is controlled by his fear. He changed because he had to to avoid his down fall.
@Sam I think that Julia betrayed Winston faster than Winson because she was weaker than Winston and Winston really cared about her and did not want to see anything happen to her.
@Jack I completely agree with you on the fact that it might be related to the "Great Purge" started by Josef Stalin. and all the other countries are like Nazi Germany and China...
@Lauren Some selfish, powerful person one day decided that they wanted total power. One follower leads to two, two to four, and they keep on getting more and more followers, until they got to where they are now. And they are still building. Kathleen
Lauren- Good question. I think that people were unhappy with the struggles and they promised the world what they wanted then as their power grew, became a dictatorship. Other evil powers like the communists and Nazis came to power in this way.
@ Sam I'm not sure if Julia gave up Winston as fast as O'Brien said but in some criminal cases if there is a partner then the police or investigators say they have already been given up in order to get the facts from the one guy, so that could have been what O'Brien did but also maybe Julia hadn't and she didn't give him up till she was in Room 101.
@Tram Why not tell him the truth. By giving him the real answers, Winston realizes the truth of what the party is doing and the power of what the party holds. By telling him the truth, Winston knows the power the party actually has.
@Jack S. In the book they briefly mention WWII and the Nazi's but O'Brien said the party had done better and able to gain complete control .What do you think of this connection?
Thoughts are being influenced but not controlled. People can try to control your thoughts but in my opinion the world will never get to the point where someone controls everyones thoughts. There are still people who are strong enough to control their thoughts and not be affected by any amount of torture and confusion. Our beliefs are the thing that we will fight for the most and I don't think that strong beliefs can ever be defeated.
@Inner Circle People in America are free to an extent, like making occupy people leave. There are rules for safety, like not allowing people on private property or not being allowed to shoot people. If it was true "freedom", people could just pull out a gun and shoot someone or walk up and say "That's a nice phone, and because I'm bigger I am going to take it from you and there is nothing you can do." There is a middle ground between this type of freedom and 1984 control.
@Trevor That is a very good question. I am not sure which one I would pick. Because Im sure if I picked to speak everything, I would be beaten up few times or get into a load of trouble with my parents. But then if you do not speak a word, you would not have a say in anything. Hmmm...
@Trevor It doesn't matter if you want to say or not say your thoughts. People want the right to do either. The freedom to speak what you believe gives the liberty to people to decide for themselves. I want the freedom to decide if I want to speak or not. It depends where I am.
@Trevor Good Question! I think I would rather speak all my thoughts, if people had to do that they could train themselves to only think what they wanted.
@Jayla I liked that connection, and it is true but like O'Brien said, Nazi's were just immature and the Party was pure. How can they tell that the party is pure, what if an even more controlling power will come around and say Oceania wasn't controlling enough?
Eli, Throughout the whole book, Winston and Julia f eared being caught by the party, everyone was afraid of what would happen if they commit any kind of crime against the party, it was all about fear, and that's how the party controls everyone. Fear is hard to control, but even harder to overcome.
@inner circle Pride can be a factor for people to do things they wouldn't if they were more humble. Pride can be a tool that gives someone the confidence that they can take something that they really can't.
@Lauren I think Julia was in love with being rebellious with winston not actually love winston because she turned on him which obviously shows she never loved him.
@Sam I think the party members mostly agree on all the same things so making decisions isnt very difficult for them but if they do disagree, i think they work it out without lett ing the public know and make decisions from there.
The ending of 1984 was a bit predictable in my opinion, but really most books are. I thought this book was a bit extreme because a country like Great Britain or the United States could never become so out of hand like depicted in this book. I thought the book balanced the sexual relationship between Winston and Julia well along with the aspect of government control. At the same time, I think Orwell really did think that the world would be like that in 1984, but that is just so off that its hard to believe. Obviously people were worrying about the same thing that we are now. Its like a cold war with the American people and the government, Moritz. The government never really has ever taken it this far, or as far as it has gone in Little Brother, and I doubt it ever will. All in all good book, got a classic under my belt so that's always good, but I refuse to believe anything like this will ever happen in the world.
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhy does Winston trust O'brien so much? Also Winston also feels a sort of connection with O'brien. Why do you believe he feels that way?
I feel Winston changed a lot from the beginning of the book to the end of the book. At the beginning although he thought and was not brain washed he was restless and mad most of the time, he just wasn't happy. At the end of the book even though he had been brain wash Winston seemed more calm about his thoughts and actions. What are your thoughts on how he changed?
ReplyDeleteHow did O'Brien get the photo? Do you think the memory holes are searched before they are burned?
ReplyDelete@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteThe mask was put onto his face, but the rats drove Winston to give in and give up the last thing he had held onto from the party; Julia. And that's why O'Brian didn't open the cage.
@Class, Why was the book made? Why would they waste their time to create a book that would motivate it's readers to go against their policies.
ReplyDeleteDo you think Winston would rather have Julia torchered instead? Did he believe O'Brien when he told Winston Julia turned on him or did he just want to say anything to not come in contact with the rats? (Anne)
ReplyDeleteI have to put this out there, this was one of the most disappointing and stupid endings I have ever read, but if you think about it, couldn't you see this was going to happen all along?
ReplyDeleteTram-
ReplyDeleteI think he might trust O'Brien because of his original thoughts. They Ministry also probably chose to have O'Brien interview people because he looks trustworthy.
@Tram
ReplyDeleteHe feels that connection to O'Brien because he was the only person Winston felt he could talk and communicate with that understood him, weather O'Brien was being his friend or foe.
@Jack S.
ReplyDeleteI really could in a way that he lost but I did think that they were going to kill Winston.
@Paige
ReplyDeleteI think the party keeps tabs on him and then got a copy of the photograph. Maybe they keep records of the people they kill for future referance if there are similar people that go against them.
@ Anne
ReplyDeleteThe book kept talking about if you are in serious pain you don't really care about anything else except the pain stopping for you. I agree with that slightly because it's true, even if you don't wish pain on others, if your really hurt you would rather it be someone else than you.
@Anne
ReplyDeleteObviously he would rather them torture her than himself. He didn't believe O'Brien, but he was so afraid of rats that he would sacrifice Julia to save himself.
@Paige
ReplyDeleteYes, I think that that they are searched because they do not want any of the already existing stuff to be burned along with things that "didn't happen."
@Class
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Julia ever loved Winston or do you think that she just loved that she could be rebellious with him, because that is what she wants to do?
@Tram
ReplyDeleteI think Winston trusted O'Brien before this so much because he didn't really meet people against the party before him so he thinks if he knew about pgroups against the party he must also be against the party to spread the news about them. (Anne)
@Paige
ReplyDeleteI think that the Party has more than one document that can be edited. They change history by editing the documents by people like Winston manually changing them, but I don't think that the document that Winston put into the memory holes are the only copy. I think it would be wise to secretly hold all documents in their original draft to be able to use against the people, and in situations like Winston is in now.
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhy do you guys think that Julia ended up with a large cut on her face after she was in Room 101? What was she most afraid of?
@Lauren A
ReplyDeleteI believe Julia loved rebelling with Winston and didn't really love Winston.
@Inner circle--What do you think they did to Julia in her room 101?
ReplyDeleteLauren-
ReplyDeleteI think Winston thought that he actually loved Julia but probably didn't based on today's terms.
@Paige
ReplyDeleteThey had been watching him for 7 years so they saw him find the picture and his reaction and might have saved it in case they would need it against him in the future, or maybe they even planted it for him to find in the first place.
@Lauren
ReplyDeleteI think that she only loved him to rebel against the party, because they never really talked or had a relationship. There wasn't anything there except for sexuality and a common view, which is nothing to base a relationship off of.
@Trevor
ReplyDeleteI think that Julia had a cut on her face after she was in Room 101 because they were trying to damage one thing she cared about. She cared deeply about her appearance.
I meant outer circle. :) Sorry.
ReplyDeleteOn page 166 in 1984, Winston and Julia are having a discussion about how the Party can never truly win over them because they could only change what they say, not what they believe, but in the end it seems that because of O'Brien and everything that happened while in the Ministry of Love, the Party actually managed to get inside Winstons head enough that they actually did change what he believed.
ReplyDelete~Kathleen
Do you think that Parson actually said "Down with Big Brother," or did his daughter just do it to show her power over him?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if Winston loved Julia either. Do you think he loved her or that they both just loved the rebellion and the sex?
ReplyDeleteWhile Winston is being tortured, O'Brien tells him that he himself collaborated in writing the "book" that O'Brien gave him. Did he really write it or is he lying? if he did write it, then does the Brotherhood actually exist or is it just a trap for people who are against the Party?
ReplyDeleteInner Circle-
ReplyDeleteThree pops up a lot because they also have the three year plans and there are three governments in the world.
@Anne
ReplyDeleteI think it was all those benefactors. He might of not even thought about it when he said, it just came out of his mouth because he was scared and everything just caused him to want to say it more. Kill her instead of me. Fear bought the better of him.
@Paige
ReplyDeleteI think that he did actually say it because his daughter is too young to understand the idea of making it up to get her dad in trouble.
@Lauren
ReplyDeleteI Think Julia never loved Winston, she loved the idea that what they were doing rebelled against Big Brother. I think she felt more of a connection between them that the other men she had slept with but I don't think she ever truly loved him. (Anne)
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhen Winston was in his cell and he was walking and building up strength, I have heard about inmates at prisons doing push-ups and sit-ups because they had nothing else to do in their cell.Do you think the author got this idea from hearing about it? Also What do you think of Winston getting a "make-over", going from fragile and weak to strong and healthy?
Colleen-
ReplyDeleteI think O'Brien was at first a conspirator against the party then he probably got caught and they changed him to catch people. O'Brien probably actually did write the book but I doubt the Brotherhood ever existed.
@Class
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Winston truly loves Big Brother at the end of the book like it says he does, or do you think that Winston is so brainwashed and numb from everything that has happened to him at the Ministry that anything sounds good/right to him now? Do you think that because of the way he feels he will go along with anything, like what O'Brien tells him is right, such as 2+2=5 and "Freedom is slavery?"
@Colleen
ReplyDeleteI think that the brotherhood does not exist and that it is a trap to catch people guilty of thought crime.
@Paige
ReplyDeleteI think that it is possible that Parson's daughter turned him in to show her power, but also possibly to get a reward for doing something "for the Party/Big Brother". It seems that children would be celebrated for doing something like that. Parsons is so enthusiastic about Big Brother that I think it would be impossible for him to say such things.
Outer circle--Let's get philosophical. If you think about it, our thoughts are the only think we truly have control of. How does this play into the final pages with O'Brien and what he is able to do.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhy did Winston find the question sessions more brutal and terrible than the beatings?
@Melissa
ReplyDeleteI think that he just wanted to get some things off his mind and relieve some stress. Excercising and working out is a great way to relieve stress.
Melissa-
ReplyDeleteI think they keep the criminals in the cell long enough to make them feel a lot better and then when they're shot, they'll miss their life that much more. It also sends a message to other people that you are better under Big Brother's care than before.
@Paige
ReplyDeleteSupposedly "3" is the most beautiful number. It shows up throughout literature and in mathematics. This is probably why it was used, no other significance.
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteWinston is finally defeated in the final pages because O'Brien could tell what he was thinking, so Winston had no control of anything after his thoughts were no longer private.
@Colleen
ReplyDeleteI think O'Brien did help write the book and it would be a good idea for a trap and to get people in trouble.
I don't think that the Brotherhood exist because O'Brien wrote the book, so there is no evidence, there might have been one in the beginning when there where more people around before the party had taken over,but the party must have ended it.
ReplyDelete@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteTheir could be an argument for and an argument against whether or not the party created the Brotherhood or not. On the one hand, it would make sense if they did, because it would pick out anyone that had any doubts in them, so they can either fix the problem or get rid of them altogether. But on the other hand, I find it hard to believe that even though their government is so messed up, their isn't any organazation that is trying to take it down.
Kathleen
@Mmoritz
ReplyDeleteYou are right, with Winston's observation of "If he says he is going to float and I believe he is going to float, he will float." He was able to trick himself into believing in anything.
Class-
ReplyDeleteIf Big Brother thinks that they have control over the past, why do they bother to teach it in schools? It changes so quickly that their learning is quickly outdated.
At Sam, I think that they truly thought they loved each other but it wasn't really love.Their urge to have a rebellion and their lust for each other created them to believe in their "love" for each other.
ReplyDeleteIt is very difficult to change your own mind. For example your favorite sports team is playing and you know they will lose. It is still extremely difficult to accept that. You still cheer for them and make yourself believe they will win even thought you know they are gonna lose. It's kind of like Winston trying to see 5 fingers.
ReplyDelete@Lauren A
ReplyDeleteI think Winston is so brain washed and numb and therefore thinks what everyone else thinks and does love Big Brother.
I think that when O'Brien is finally able to control Winston's thoughts, Winston has nothing left and has no control at all anymore, which leads to the fact that Winston says that he loves Big Brother at the end of the book. Once O'Brien has control of Winston's thoughts, he can make Winston say/think/do anything he wants him to.
ReplyDelete@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteThe end of the book confronted this idea that our thoughts are our own and can't be taken from us, and I believe that they can't. The book suggests that there might be a way to break people to the point that anything in that person can be controlled. The final pages of this book fought the idea thata a person's thoughts are their own.
@Eli
ReplyDeleteI think that Winston found the questions more awful than the beatings because he could gradually become used to the physical pain, but when they were inside his head he ended up saying things he didn't believe and doing all sorts of things he was against. He may have felt himself changing and was completely against that. When they were beating Winston, he was more of a martyr, suffering for his cause.
O'Brien refereed to Winston as the "last man" but what is he the last man of? Dose it mean the last non-believer, was it figurative, or did it refer to something else?
ReplyDeleteClass-
ReplyDeleteWhy does everybody assume that O'Brien wrote the book? He can say that he wrote it but may not have, O'Brien also thinks that he can float so he may be delusional.
How does the dial that O'Brien held to torture Winston work?
ReplyDelete@Paige
ReplyDeleteSo then people have something to believe, to fill up their minds instead of letting them wonder what used to happen. If people start to wonder what used to be instead of "knowing" what used to be, there could be more rebels.
@Natalie
ReplyDeleteBecause at that point of pain and suffering, his mind is changed to who will stop the pain? He saw O'Brien as the man that stopped the pain and suffering.
@Paige
ReplyDeleteMaybe they just have history to give themselves something to do and keep the kids busy. Nothing else really has a point, why should the schooling? Plus, it seems that they rely upon part of it to make everyone feel that their life is better than how it would have been before.
Kathleen
@Melissa
ReplyDeleteI assume that it stretches him out, that's why his joints were separated and he thought his back would snap.
@Jayla
ReplyDeleteO'Brien may have been suggesting to Winston that without the Party he was alone but if he joined and became part of it then there would be more people with him. I'm sure that there are many more non-believers in Oceania, but they are discouraged from talking to one another so none of them have any idea who each other are.
@Melissa
ReplyDeleteI think that it must be electricity or something but I don't know whether or not his spine could have actually snapped or if it just felt like that?
Trevor-
ReplyDeleteI think that his daughter is smarter than that because she thought to stalk down the odd looking man in the forest.
@Jack
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that they just want people to believe one things so they do not have the opportunity to think about "knowing."
@Jack
ReplyDeleteBut it said he was tied up so he couldn't move at all.
The drunk woman in the cell, who threw up everywhere, was she Winston's mother or did they know each other sometime in the past?
ReplyDelete@Paige
ReplyDeleteI think that everyone assumes that O'Brien wrote the book because he said he did, and also because it seems to be the obvious choice, as O'Brien could have written the book for people like Winston to read so that the Party could arrest them, although someone else truly may have written it.
@Jayla
ReplyDeleteO'Brian referred to Winston as the last man because he wants to drive out all of Winston's courage. Winston views what the party is doing as eliminating what makes humans human, their thought. By calling him the last man, O'Brian tells Winston that everyone else has been taken care of that thinks for themselves and that if the party could get everyone else, they can positively get Winston. It's a tool to hurt Winston.
@Paige
ReplyDeleteThe people don't think for themselves so when the party teaches them one thing they will believe them, and if they change that, they will listen and believe whatever "Big brother" tells them no matter what.
In the book, the party can get rid of people in such a way that it looks like they never existed in the first place if they give them reason too. Considering both Winston and supposedly O'Brien have given them reason to at one point of another, maybe they consider that as meaning that they don't really exist. They are too irrelevent.
ReplyDeleteKathleen
Who makes the decisions in the party if Big Brother is just a picture, what if party members disagree? Who gets the final say?
ReplyDelete@Melissa
ReplyDeleteMaybe the dial somehow taps into Winston's nerves and brain to make him feel as if his body is coming apart. It could be electric as Trevor said too.
@Eli--what point in the conclusion do you seen that supports the idea that Winston still have control over his own thoughts? Is it the illusion of being shot? Is it his wish to die? Because in the very end, he seems to embrace his brainwash-of loving Big Brother--or was it all a farce?
ReplyDelete@Jack
ReplyDeleteI don't think Winston or the reader will ever know who she was but I don't think she was his mom. I think that it was just coincidental that she was the age that she was.
@Jayla
ReplyDeleteBy O'Brien calling him the last man, he was saying two things. One, that no one else out there is with his cause, and two, he has old outdated ideas and when he is gone no one else will continue to fight for freedom.
I think Big Brother is a group of people and when needed people are replaced that are already high up so they trust him so Big Brother can never die. (Anne)
ReplyDelete@Jack
ReplyDeleteI think the woman was just a random person caught by the thought police and they didn't know each other. He probably wanted to apologize for his actions as a child so he wanted to find his mom and just started thinking of "maybe I could be related to her, or her, or her"
Jack S-
ReplyDeleteI don't think the lady in the cell was his mother, I think it just reminded him of her. I think she probably got killed in the first purges.
@Mrs. Moritz
ReplyDeleteIn the end, O'brien knows and understands Winston's thoughts. Winston still thinks for his own until O'brien breaks him down and tears him apart. Winston starts to become careless with his thoughts and life itself. Winston had his thoughts controlled at the end so theory that our thoughts are the only thing we control is not really true.
why isn't anyone posting?
ReplyDeleteHow fast do you think Julia betrayed Winston? As fast as O'brien said?
ReplyDeleteOn page 263, O'brien tells Winston that the party seeks power for it's own sake. Why does he tell him the truth?
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteHow do you think that the Party originated? How do you think that it came into being and has garnished so much power that now Inner Party members like O'Brien are able to do the things that they do?
@Sam
ReplyDeleteIt could be like our system where there is maybe a group of men who love big brother and they vote for laws, but I agree there needs to be someone above others to be able to control the group. It's different from ours because there is no democracy and the people don't vote for the men at the top.
@Sam G
ReplyDeleteI think that Julia betrayed Winston much faster than he betrayed her because I think she was mentally much weaker and didn't care about Winston as much as he cared about her.
@Paige
ReplyDeleteAh ha! Great purges..... Remind anyone of the USSR? How does this book apply to China or Russia or Nazi Germany?
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that the rats drove Winston to the point of leaving his thoughts behind because of his fear. If you can control a person through fear, they will do anything for you. At that point I think Winston lost his fight. He embraces the party because of his fear. I don't know if deep down he holds his beliefs close to him, but if he does he has no means of speaking him because he is controlled by his fear. He changed because he had to to avoid his down fall.
@Sam
ReplyDeleteI think that Julia betrayed Winston faster than Winson because she was weaker than Winston and Winston really cared about her and did not want to see anything happen to her.
@Jack
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with you on the fact that it might be related to the "Great Purge" started by Josef Stalin. and all the other countries are like Nazi Germany and China...
@Lauren
ReplyDeleteSome selfish, powerful person one day decided that they wanted total power. One follower leads to two, two to four, and they keep on getting more and more followers, until they got to where they are now. And they are still building.
Kathleen
Lauren-
ReplyDeleteGood question. I think that people were unhappy with the struggles and they promised the world what they wanted then as their power grew, became a dictatorship. Other evil powers like the communists and Nazis came to power in this way.
@ Sam
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if Julia gave up Winston as fast as O'Brien said but in some criminal cases if there is a partner then the police or investigators say they have already been given up in order to get the facts from the one guy, so that could have been what O'Brien did but also maybe Julia hadn't and she didn't give him up till she was in Room 101.
@Tram
ReplyDeleteWhy not tell him the truth. By giving him the real answers, Winston realizes the truth of what the party is doing and the power of what the party holds. By telling him the truth, Winston knows the power the party actually has.
@Jack S.
ReplyDeleteIn the book they briefly mention WWII and the Nazi's but O'Brien said the party had done better and able to gain complete control .What do you think of this connection?
@Eli--good for you. I really is all about fear. Although they never released the rats, it was the idea--the thought--that drove him to comply.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWould you rather speak all of your thoughts? or never say a word?
On another note--what would be in your room 101?
ReplyDeleteThoughts are being influenced but not controlled. People can try to control your thoughts but in my opinion the world will never get to the point where someone controls everyones thoughts. There are still people who are strong enough to control their thoughts and not be affected by any amount of torture and confusion. Our beliefs are the thing that we will fight for the most and I don't think that strong beliefs can ever be defeated.
ReplyDelete@Inner Circle
ReplyDeletePeople in America are free to an extent, like making occupy people leave. There are rules for safety, like not allowing people on private property or not being allowed to shoot people. If it was true "freedom", people could just pull out a gun and shoot someone or walk up and say "That's a nice phone, and because I'm bigger I am going to take it from you and there is nothing you can do." There is a middle ground between this type of freedom and 1984 control.
@Trevor
ReplyDeleteThat is a very good question. I am not sure which one I would pick. Because Im sure if I picked to speak everything, I would be beaten up few times or get into a load of trouble with my parents. But then if you do not speak a word, you would not have a say in anything. Hmmm...
@Trevor
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't matter if you want to say or not say your thoughts. People want the right to do either. The freedom to speak what you believe gives the liberty to people to decide for themselves. I want the freedom to decide if I want to speak or not. It depends where I am.
@Trevor
ReplyDeleteGood Question! I think I would rather speak all my thoughts, if people had to do that they could train themselves to only think what they wanted.
@Jayla
ReplyDeleteI liked that connection, and it is true but like O'Brien said, Nazi's were just immature and the Party was pure. How can they tell that the party is pure, what if an even more controlling power will come around and say Oceania wasn't controlling enough?
@Class
ReplyDeleteDo you think that there was any truth to the book that O'Brien gave Winston? Why or not?
Eli,
ReplyDeleteThroughout the whole book, Winston and Julia f
eared being caught by the party, everyone was afraid of what would happen if they commit any kind of crime against the party, it was all about fear, and that's how the party controls everyone. Fear is hard to control, but even harder to overcome.
@Moritz
ReplyDeleteSpiders
Moritz-
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Natalie, it probably would be the death of my family or drowing or dying in the sky.
@inner circle
ReplyDeletePride can be a factor for people to do things they wouldn't if they were more humble. Pride can be a tool that gives someone the confidence that they can take something that they really can't.
@Moritz
ReplyDeleteor being trapped in a box or something closed
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteSuffocation/drowning
@Moritz
ReplyDeleteAny threat of hurting one of the people that I care about.
Kathleen
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteburied alive or drowning
@MMoritz
ReplyDeleteFalling from the sky... without a parachute. :(
@sam
ReplyDeleteI think she betrayed him as fast as o brian said because O Brian had no reason to lie to winston since winston had nothing to live for.
@Lauren
ReplyDeleteI think Julia was in love with being rebellious with winston not actually love winston because she turned on him which obviously shows she never loved him.
@Sam
ReplyDeleteI think the party members mostly agree on all the same things so making decisions isnt very difficult for them but if they do disagree, i think they work it out without lett ing the public know and make decisions from there.
The ending of 1984 was a bit predictable in my opinion, but really most books are. I thought this book was a bit extreme because a country like Great Britain or the United States could never become so out of hand like depicted in this book. I thought the book balanced the sexual relationship between Winston and Julia well along with the aspect of government control. At the same time, I think Orwell really did think that the world would be like that in 1984, but that is just so off that its hard to believe. Obviously people were worrying about the same thing that we are now. Its like a cold war with the American people and the government, Moritz. The government never really has ever taken it this far, or as far as it has gone in Little Brother, and I doubt it ever will. All in all good book, got a classic under my belt so that's always good, but I refuse to believe anything like this will ever happen in the world.
ReplyDelete