Personally, I find Julia to be a horrible person, but so is Winston. They both were willing to inflict pain on the other, and that shows that perhaps they never really truly loved each other.
@Reid Because he was faced with "the worst thing in the world", something that he couldn't withstand. At that moment he was so terrified that nothing else mattered to him except getting away from the rats.
@Gabe I don't think I could love Big Brother after what the government did that stuff to me. I would have a huge grudge. However I would be scared to hate Big Brother.
@Gabe: No way. I think it would be better to die than give some opressive government everything. Then again, it's hard to face your greatest fear. It's easy to SAY you will be strong enough, but I don't think you will really know if you would be until you are actually in that situation.
@Gabe I think that it depends on how strong the person is. Unless you are determined in your motives, being tortured would probably slowly break people down enough to the point where they do whatever they are told.
@Gabe I would like to say no way! However, being in that kind of circumstance might cause me to do something insane like that. It's hard to know what I would do if the government pushed me to that kind of extreme.
@Arman I dont think there is an intentional connection. There may be a small hint of connection, but I don't think it is to this extreme and I think Orwell meant this to be a prediction and not a comparison.
I would love to say that I wouldn't. That I would stay strong and keep saying to myself 2+2=4. But if it came down to the torture that Winston faced, yeah, I'm gonna give in. At my core, or in my subconscious, I would hate Big Brother, but I would lie enough to myself just enough, to be able to earn the "privilege" get shot.
@ Gabe I hate to say it, but I think that if I had been that tortured and that mislead for that long, I would eventually come to love Big Brother as Winston did. However, I am not sure it would have been real love, but I might have acted like I loved Big Brother just to put me out of my misery.
@Gabe- I would like to think that I would continue to hate Big Brother. I think that while I might have said that I loved Big Brother, I would go home and remember what they did to me, and I would probably still hate him, although I would be more cautious.
But really, since I have never gone through torture, I can't say....
Winston was trying to not do that at the beginning, but as it went on, he couldn't take the pain anymore, and he just caved and completely betrayed Julia and the rest of the brotherhood.
@Arman I think everyone feels trapped at some point of their life. Internally or literally externally. Either way, I would agree that sometimes people use similar tactics towards prisoners.
@Gabe Everyone is seeming to say no way, but they aren't really thinking that if they went through all of the pain and torture that Winston had to go through, wouldn't they too do anything that they could in order to make all of the tireless pain cease to exist with themselves? I wouldn't want to give in and begin to love Big Brother but...
@ Arman I don't see any connection whatsoever between the wat prisoners are treated. Years ago there was the electric chair, but that killed people. Now, if you refuse to tell the truth, they don't use torture(at least in the U.S.) to squeeze the facts out of you.
@Inner Circle: Do you think that the government doesn't want bad thoughts out in the universe? Or what are their motives in making everyone loyal before they die?
@class - Why did they torture Winston to the brink of death, but refused to kill him until they 'cured' him? I understood a lot of the government's thinking about how to endure as leaders, but I didn't understand this. He'll never have existed anyway, so why?
@Inner Circle The goal of the torture his to break his resistance. He must be entirely and totally allied with them before he dies, so that there are no martyrs, no one can die for a cause. I think it's also possible that the "bullet to the head" is both literal and figurative. At the very moment when he finally began to love Big Brother, he took a figurative "bullet to the head", and the Winston we knew through out the entirety of the book died. At that moment, Winston is gone, and only a shell of who he was is left. He never could have seen that moment coming, he was "shot in the back of the head".
This situation that Winston went through is extremely similar to Jaycee Dugard's story. Her captor changed her mind to the point where she stopped resisting. It shows that people will break down when put in extreme conditions. The mind can always be changed.
@Reid I think that he was so freaked out about the rats that he did not know what else to do. He also was not thinking about what he was saying, just about his situation. I think the only reason that he did not betray Julia earlier is because she was the only person he was semi-happy with and she "supported" him.
@Brooke It is because he was "cured" that he was okay with it. He loved the government, loved Big Brother, and anything they did was right in his eyes. That was the very point of the torture.
@Rick I think that they did that because in their minds the greatest rebellion might be when someone dies hating the government. When Winston was talking about how they kill him, he will die hating the government. But until then he will act as though he loves it. And with the thought of dying hating the government, he was put back in the Ministry of Love to be cured even further. They want everyone to love them.
@Class O'Brian seems to be making a game out of Winston. His only goal seems to be to make Winston love the government. He is able to change him but i don't think there is a way that someone can't be broken down by physical torture.
@ Casey I totally agree. If Winston and Julia would have truly loved each other, they would have died loving each other, and they would have taken all the pain instead of giving it to the other. The fact that they turned on each other broke my heart, because I thought they finally loved each other and they would stick together until the end.
@ Rick I think that the goal is to not let someone die as a stain on the perfect world of the Party. They didn't want anyone to die unloyal to them. I think it's more of a pride thing.
@Rick I think the government tortured him just to torture him- it is so messed up, I think they just figured he was a traitor and danger to the government that he deserved to feel pain and then, just kill him to top it off.
@Baegen Room 101 seems to be different for everyone. It gives in the each of the individuals fears. Not everyone would have such a fear of rats as Winston did.
I think that Room 101 is every ones worst fears. Although, even though rats aren't my worst fear, I would be freaked out if someone put a cage of them up to my face.
@Rick I think that the government doesn't kill him because it shows that they are capable of getting what they want and that they are willing to do whatever it takes to stay in power. Also, most of the people wanted to die, but they kept them alive because it was a worse punishment than taking their lives. Big Brother would not want to give them the easy way out.
@Katie I really don't think that they would even have a chance to blow up the government. If two people can't even have a relastionship, how in the world would they be able to blow up the government.
@Brooke I really don’t know what to think of the ending. There is no moral of the story or overall theme. Fahrenheit 451 was a cautionary tale about the dangers of burning books. But I really don’t see the moral in 1984. Orwell is preaching that the government will always win no matter what happens. The government is immortal and cannot be stopped.
@Taylor: Do you really think that the government would kill them like that? They don't want to kill them disloyal, so do you think that their fears are just a threat?
@Baergen It doesn't make sense that they wouldn't have killed him in the beginning because it doesn't seem like anyone would care. No one would stop and think, wow, big brother is pretty evil. They just live there lives and Winston would go missing unnoticed.
@Arman- In practicallity, there is certain relationships between how the people are treated now and even back then, that they have to be made into "normal" of our society. That there aren't really tortures but there are ways they use to manipulate people.
@Class O'Brien often was saying that Winston was sick in the mind or had a mental illness. Do you all believe that Winston had a mental illness? Or is his illness having the ability to be able to stand up against the government?
I think that it would make sense to do it on and individual basis. It is true that they could figure something out that would terrify most people, but that is a rather inefficient method. It would make more sense to use whatever each individual is most afraid of.
@class - I don't think the brotherhood really exists in the way Winston thought it did. O'Brien claimed to be on Winston's side, then clearly was a part of the party and tortured Winston. He also claimed to have helped write Goldstein's book. What are your thoughts on that?
Yes. It was not really explained well I don't think. All of a sudden he was thrown in jail and then he turned into the villain of Winston in the ministry of love.
@ inner circle I think we overestimate ourselves. I think that we are weaker than we think. We can pretend all we want about how we wouldn't break, but we would. There would be no resisting in the end.
@Michael- I really didn't like the book's ending. I read a lot, and I guess I am used to happy endings, or at least endings where there is some lesson learned for the better. But the ending in 1984 is not for the better at all! I felt like the storyline was building it all up, and I expected something, at least a valiant effort. But no. Winston got caught without actually doing anything. They tortured him. And then he gave up. And that makes it more realistic, I think, but it's not really what people want to read in a story. I was disappointed.
@Gabe I think it's entirely possible to mentally break someone through torture. After undergoing the worst pain one can possibly imagine, and being faced with your worst fears, it would be very hard not to agree to anything, to grovel and cry and do anything possible to stop the pain. He was so terrified that he sold out a woman that he believed he loved. At that point, there's nothing that he wouldn't have done.
@Michael I think the point of the book was government control and the individuality of the government. There might not seem to be a specific think that Orwell wrote the book for, but the overall idea was to demonstrate who powerful a government can become.
@ Class How do you think Winston lasted in Room 101 so long? I didn't think that his belief was that strong. I thought he was going to come to an end much sooner than he actually did. What do you think?
@Brooke I think that O'BRien is a huge bully. I was really mad to find out that he was behind this, but on the other hand it didn't surprise me, I kinda figured that something like this was going to happen.
@class- The way that the torture is found in every single person in there society is extremely scary. How do you think the society knows everything about everyone? How do they know their fears?
@Michael--I think that is exactly what Orwell wants you to realize. Ultimately, how much power do we allow the government to have. How many things are the average American's oblivious to? To me, it is scary to realize how much we don't know.
@Klarissa If all of the people stand together to overthrow the government, then there is a slight chance that they can throw them out. Most of the people are so brainwashed though that there are not enough of sane people to even think about overpowering Big Brother. Plus, no one knows who can be a member of the Thought Police or who is dedicated to the Party.
@Casey I think that we would want to resist completely. But when it really comes down to it we couldn't do it. It's like how when we are with our friends I'm sure almost all of us have said these crazy stupid things that we would do but then when we are away we don't actually do anything like that. We want to be stronger than we really are.
The Party and Big Brother want absolute control. Although it doesn't matter, not even a little bit, whether the confessions of a prisoner are true or not, The Party just wants power over people down to the very last molecule in their body. But Winston was right, a prisoner could trick himself into believing what his torturers forced him to believe, but in the last second before death, where there is no more left to lose, the truth will seep out. And it angers the Party into perfecting the art of Brainwashing.
@Rick There's no way to know for sure. It might, it might not. It's entirely possible that the government invented it specifically to create more rebels. The party does not appear as strong if there is no enemy. In order to create a world like the one O'Brien described, a world fueled by hate and anger, the must be someone to direct that hate and anger towards.
@Savannah Exactly, I think people could then easily overthrough the government. I mean, I really don't think that everyone would be that afraid of rats!
They weren't going to kill Winston. They were always planning to change all of his thoughts to things appropriate for the party and big brother. That way there are more people loyal.
@ inner circle My question is, why would Winston and Julia do the exact same thing? Why did they both say that they would have it done to the other person? Earlier in the book, this one man said that he would allow them to slaughter his family in front of him.
I think that he was remembering everything that he had promised to the brotherhood, but that wasn't enough. He then remembered Julia and how much he loves her, and he's trying to stay strong and not let her get hurt and he just wanted to get back together.
@Brooke- I thought O'Brien's character was really complex. It was hard to tell if he was on Winston's side or not. One thing that O'Brien said, on page 238, "They got me a long time ago," made me think that he was actually on the government's side. Maybe he used to be like Winston, but the government got him and now he fights for the government- while feeling empathy for Winston. But maybe he is just trying to protect the Brotherhood when he tortures Winston. I think that Orwell wanted us to think about it.
@class - on page 242, Winston talks about confessing everything; he even flat out lies saying he had been a spy in the Eastasian government since 1968! If the party knew everything, what is the point of Winston's false confessions.
I know this is a terrible thing to say, but I think Room 101 is a genious idea. If you want to get into someone's head or get them to confess something, I think that putting them against their biggest fear is the best solution. I actually believe that fear is worse than physical torture.
@ inner circle Have you actually been to each and every border in the U.S.? There is no way of knowing for sure whether everything we've been told is really true.
@Brooke- The understanding of 2+2=5 is an intriguing point brought up by the author, that in their society they control every solution and everyway somebody thinks. That they have no free will with something that makes no sense
I think that it's all brainwashing and belief. There are many things that people just say they are afraid of without actually knowing whether or not they really are. They just go with what Big Brother says and what keeps them alive and out of trouble.
@Blake I think its beacause everyone is so brainwashed, that they really don't even know what they really are afraid of. They also probably know because of all the thought police. They are constantly being watched.
@Rick The government wants a victory so they will cure him and then kill so it isn't a waste. Maybe they feel less guilty by helping him and then disposing of him.
@Brooke I think that the significance is that this government is so powerful and has such a strong hold on everyone that they can change a persons mind. 2+2=4 is something that someone would think that they know for sure, but the government has the power to change that.
@Brooke: I think that it is kind of saying that we only believe what we are told. 2+2=5 is just a representation. Numbers are not real. So, in theory. 2+2 COULD be 5. We don't know.
@Casey I think it's because they are all to weak to take the pain themselves. They want all the pain to be on everyone but them. They are completely selfish. It's just as Julia was saying in her speech when her and Winston met again after the Ministry of Love.
@Brooke I think that the significance is that "2+2=4" is a basic fact that all kids learn at a young age. If the government can change something as basic as that, what's to stop them from controlling everything else?
The Party talks about how reality is comprised of only the mind of the person. In a sense, they're correct. Perception is reality. After WWII, and after the Nazis killed millions, some Germans went on, completely denying the events, and absolutely believing that the Holocaust never happened. But two things keep the legacy of the Holocaust alive. Those who acknowledge it, and the physical evidence. Both of which The Party in the book attempted to eradicate, any reality outside of the mind, outside of what reality they created.
I think that O'Brien was like an undercover agent. If you think about it, he had recordings of his and Winston's conversation when Winston joined the Brotherhood. He could have easily started to record their conversation when he 'turned off' the telescreen. O'Brien also had everything that he needed. He found out where Winston and Julia's 'hideout' was. It would have been easy for O'Brien to put the telescreen into the room.
@Brooke - I think the math problem is said again and again because it is something that is seemingly so basic, and so obvious. Yet the government is saying that 2+2 doesn't equal 4, and if they can do that, then they can change anything.
@Arman- You bring up a good point, that these people honestly are just trying to stay alive and not really thinking about what scares them, but what will actually happen to them at the same time.
@Blake- I don't necessarily think that the government knows EVERYONE'S fears and thoughts. I think they have gotten really good at knowing certain people's fears and thoughts, and they make examples of them. They choose the people and execute the punishments,and they are fantastic at doing it in such a way that others are afraid to do anything about it.
@Class It's not about whether things are real or not. Its about how the government got people to believe certain things. It is about power and how no one questions it.
@ Elly I don't think that it's a horrible thing to say. the atomic bomb wasn't a "peacful" option and it wasn't meant to be a good undestructive tool. I agree that it's a genuis type of idea. That doesn't mean inventions or ideas are supposed to be a positive outcome.
@Rick The government just likes to hear how much control they have over the people. Over time, they can make everyone think about whatever they choose.
@Elly I think you're absolutely right. It was the pure terror itself that finally got him to betray Julia. I think it was that fear that finally broke him down to the point that they wished him to get to.
@Rick I think the Brotherhood is the scapegoat for The Party. The Brotherhood is the yin to The Party’s yang. They are fire and ice. As long as The Party exists The Brotherhood will exist. The Party uses The Brotherhood as a way to prove that they are right. The Brotherhood won’t go away because The Party needs them as the way to show how powerful the government is. It weird to say but the two parties need each other.
When Winston stepped in front of the mirror, it was the final conformation that 1984 mirrored WWII. The body that Winston described as his own, was what the body of a Jewish person from a concentration camp would be like. Class, what other examples, other connections are there in the book to WWII?
In torture chambers in Europe from the early times the had tools to make the innocent confess or be killed or if you confessed you would still be killed. However people thought if they confessed they would be let free unharmed. Winston probably thought the same thing.
@Heidi You are so right in saying that perception is reality. When you are living in a place like Winston is, there is no person to say anything bad to about your government except the government, and that is different than in Hitler's time because then the Jews had places like America to go to and tell what was going on. But for Winston, if the government doesnt want anything getting out, they will do what they have to to silence him and make sure no one ever finds out.
@Blake I think overall, people may have individual fears, but generally they are all afraid of the same thing, the government. I think that it all boils down to the same thing.
@ Blake I agree that it is extremely scary, but I think it is easy for them to figure out what everyone's fear is. There are telescreens everywhere. Because the people are monitored all the time, it is easy for the telescreens to eventually figure out everyon's fear.
I think that that is a very good point. If someone already doubts something, and the only thing making them believe it is solid evidence is suddenly gone, what is left to believe in that thing anymore?
@Heidi That is very true. As long as there is no evidence there is no past... To the present mind. We don't have concrete evidence on how the dinasours acted but we do know how Columbus got to the Americas. Through documentation.
@Willie You are exactly right.Except in history we are aloud to break our spoons and challenge the system. Big Brother would not allow you to break the spoon. You must follow him or be punished.
@Willie That is very true. Its hard to imagine people completely following the government because it seems obviously wrong. But it has happened in the past many times, so how do we know that it won't happen again?
@Heidi- There's a lot of symbolization off of the way a single leader seems like a genius and they want to follow him, like many thought about Hitler at the time, and still makes people think that there are superior races in the world, like they thought about themselves.
@ class Could you imagine being sentenced to death, and then trying to move faster toward it? To want to "fix" your mind quicker so that death will come all the more quickly.
@Heidi - I agree with your comparison from Winston's experience in the Ministry of Love to the Holocaust, but the Jewish were forced to work for the government or killed. In this story, it's as if the Germans transformed the Jews into people of their perfect race.
The Party can change anything because they control the minds of the people. The world is all about perception and suggestion. If the people believe is then it will be. That is how The Party controls the people through changing their perception and telling them what to believe.
@Heidi I think that's an excellent connection. In my opinion, reality exists in both the mind and the physical world. There are some things we can't deny. I am typing this on a laptop, the laptop is sitting on a table. However, there are some realities that I can create and make true, simply by convincing myself of them. I could tell myself that this laptop is out to get me, and convince myself that it is true. I could create my own new faith, or tell myself that no one in this class is real. In that sense, reality can be both physical and mental.
@Casey I think its because they all just want the torture to end. When you have something terrible going on in your life, don't you just want that terrible thing to end as fast as possible? Imagine if that was your whole life...It's hard to warp your mind around.
@Brooke I think that Big Brother is an idea as a way to control the people. It might have started out as one person, but for Big Brother to be effective more people would have to be involved. So I think Big Brother just turned into a symbol of the government.
@Casey I could not imagine it. It seems impossible. If I knew I was going to die I would loose it, and give up. I wouldn't try to fix myself for the government if they were going to kill me anyway.
In 1984, you are simply tortured to the point of where you no longer want to break the spoon. Then given another spoon. Are the pushups and lack of cookies "torture"?
I think that if I were in the same position that Winston was in I would probably do the same thing. He was being tortured, and from what was described, I would want it all to end in one way or another.
@ Class If the telescreen in Winston and Julia's room hadn't have heard about Winston's fear of rats and Julia's love of beauty, do you think that the thought police would have had to wait longer to capture them? If they hadn't of known Winston and Julia's fear, they wouldn't know what to torture them with in Room 101. Do you think another way to keep from being captured by the thought police is to not let them know your biggest fear?
@Class I think they did not kill them because they wanted to use them as an example. If I saw Julia on the street with the scars on her face, I would not dare challenge Big Brother.
@Kate Well can there really be a perfect person in this society? Julia was just trying to live a life similar to before Big Brother and becuase of all the restrictions and reprocusions she wasn't able to. She isn't necesarily a terrible person she was just trying to be free.
@ Eliza And yet, are your eyes betraying you? Are you sure that you feel your fingers typing on the laptop? How do you know that you aren't lying on a lab table, giving these feelings by a simulator or something?
That is true, although today, we all try hard to only say and promise what we know we can pull of, only pushing the boundaries. I have much respect for those who, like Winston, talk big, but it is very important that they also come through on what they say, which is where Winston falls back.
@Joe - I don't think they wanted to use him as an example, because no one will ever know they existed. They will have no legacy, so I don't see what good the extreme torture would be in showing the world an example.
@Emma- I think that he did insist that there would be something significant that would happen, because already we are starting to think and act as they are in their society, that we are kind of constrained to think in a certain way.
@ class In the part of the book when Winston was nursing himself back to health, why do you think he bothered? Why did he try to get his strength back when he knew that death was coming?
@Joe Would you know that those scars are becuase of Big Brother though? They made such a great image of themselves that people wouldn't automatically asume it was big brother. If you saw someone with a scarred face oon the street today would you just asume it was our government? Would you asume it was in a war or just an accident?
@Willie But I still think that the possibility for the brotherhood does exsist. I mean, I think that if we precieve things only one way, we will never understand. What if the government truly even didn't exsist. How can you trust anything, let alone yourself in a society like this.
Big Brother is God. Albeit the bad version. God is the idea of love, to me at least, and he will never die because he is an idea. And no matter what happens to a person who carries the idea, it will still live on (V for Vendetta, anyone?) Big Brother will never die as long as he has those who follow him, who believe in his ideas (The Party), who remember him. Hitler now lives in immortality, despite negative connotations, because we won't forget his ideas and his legacy (even though we find him and his actions repulsive.)
@Toni I think that in the very end of the book, Winston really believes that he loves Big Brother. I don't get quite why he loves Big Brother now that they just won a war or on the road to winning. Winston wants to believe that he loves Big Brother but in the end when he is going to die or get shot, his last few moments, he really might die hating Big Brother.
@Arman Yes, I don't think that making a promise to yourself to do something like that is wise. In Winston's case, he really didn't understand the extremes that the government would go to stop him, so I don't think he should have ever made that kind of a promise to himself.
@Gabe That's a good point. You would have to know his story. And as Rick said, nobody will know. No one will realize whate happened to Julia and Winston.
Yes, but Orwell was not attempting to show exactly what happened in WWII, just the horrors of the Holocaust and the power-driven, vicious, disturbing motives and actions of the Nazis
I thought it was interesting that in the end, Winston never did die. He was 'doomed', he was going to be shot in the head, but it never happened. He never did die. Although, I will say he seemed to die morally, but not physically like he expected.
@Inner Circle I think Taylor's point is basically the same as Micheal's. Taylor just believes that the individual has to ban together. But, Micheal is saying the INDIVIDUAL alone cannot change anything. Taylor just beleives that those individuals can join together to change things. Taylor is just looking at a more broad individuality. Individuality in a group...
@Willie True, but there is always still the possiblity of it. As much power as the government has, I think that people could still have the power to overthrow it. I don't know, I still agree with you that the fact that they would be pretty lazy then.
@INNER CIRCLE The story was cautionary. It was his idea of what life was going to be like in 1984. It could be a warning that if totalinarianism continued, the world would end up like this form of unthought system.
@ Class
ReplyDeleteWould you have grown to love Big Brother if you were in Winston's place?
What did you guys think of the ending of the book?
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhy did Winston betray Julia in Room 101?
@Gabe
ReplyDeleteThat's a hard question. He was tortured, so I can see why. Also, I never really thought that he was dedicated to rebelling.
@ Class
ReplyDeleteDo you guys think there is a connection between the way prisoners are treated and tortured in today's society?
@ Reid
ReplyDeleteWinston didn't love Julia and he was tortured and probably want her so suffer too.
@Reid
ReplyDeleteRoom 101 is the worst thing in the world. Whatever your greatest fear is. If breaks you completely to the point of loving big brother.
@Reid
ReplyDeleteI think that Winston knew that he didn't feel the same for Julia anymore and decided to face what he felt and save himself.
Personally, I find Julia to be a horrible person, but so is Winston. They both were willing to inflict pain on the other, and that shows that perhaps they never really truly loved each other.
ReplyDelete@Reid
ReplyDeleteBecause he was faced with "the worst thing in the world", something that he couldn't withstand. At that moment he was so terrified that nothing else mattered to him except getting away from the rats.
@Gabe
ReplyDeleteI don't think I could love Big Brother after what the government did that stuff to me. I would have a huge grudge. However I would be scared to hate Big Brother.
@Class What are your thoughts on the book’s ending?
ReplyDelete@Gabe:
ReplyDeleteNo way. I think it would be better to die than give some opressive government everything. Then again, it's hard to face your greatest fear. It's easy to SAY you will be strong enough, but I don't think you will really know if you would be until you are actually in that situation.
@Gabe
ReplyDeleteI think that it depends on how strong the person is. Unless you are determined in your motives, being tortured would probably slowly break people down enough to the point where they do whatever they are told.
@Reid
ReplyDeleteShe probably betrayed him because she didn't want to deal with all of the pain herself. She wanted anyone but herself to have the pain.
@Gabe
ReplyDeleteI would like to say no way! However, being in that kind of circumstance might cause me to do something insane like that. It's hard to know what I would do if the government pushed me to that kind of extreme.
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you all think about the ending and how Winston now loves Big Brother?
@Arman
ReplyDeleteI dont think there is an intentional connection. There may be a small hint of connection, but I don't think it is to this extreme and I think Orwell meant this to be a prediction and not a comparison.
@Class
ReplyDeleteIf they knew what Winston was thinking all along, why didn't they just kill him in the beginning? Does this happen to everyone?
@ Gabe
ReplyDeleteI would love to say that I wouldn't. That I would stay strong and keep saying to myself 2+2=4. But if it came down to the torture that Winston faced, yeah, I'm gonna give in. At my core, or in my subconscious, I would hate Big Brother, but I would lie enough to myself just enough, to be able to earn the "privilege" get shot.
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think O'Brien stopped torturing Winston for a while when he still had feelings for Julia?
@Arman
ReplyDeleteI really hope not. It would be horrible if in today's society we had a "Room 101," or anything like it.
@ Gabe
ReplyDeleteI hate to say it, but I think that if I had been that tortured and that mislead for that long, I would eventually come to love Big Brother as Winston did. However, I am not sure it would have been real love, but I might have acted like I loved Big Brother just to put me out of my misery.
@Gabe- I would like to think that I would continue to hate Big Brother. I think that while I might have said that I loved Big Brother, I would go home and remember what they did to me, and I would probably still hate him, although I would be more cautious.
ReplyDeleteBut really, since I have never gone through torture, I can't say....
@Arman
ReplyDeleteOrwell likely over exaggerated torture in prisons for 1984. It's not that horrid. Close, but not as horrific as the ministry of love's tortures.
@Reid
ReplyDeleteHe was so terrified of Big Brother and realized that his life was more important than Julia's. It shows how influential Big Brother is.
@ Reid
ReplyDeleteWinston was trying to not do that at the beginning, but as it went on, he couldn't take the pain anymore, and he just caved and completely betrayed Julia and the rest of the brotherhood.
@Reid Winston betrayed Julia because of self-preservation. The instinct of saving himself over others kicked in. It is a perfectly normal instinct.
ReplyDelete@Arman
ReplyDeleteI think everyone feels trapped at some point of their life. Internally or literally externally. Either way, I would agree that sometimes people use similar tactics towards prisoners.
@Gabe
ReplyDeleteEveryone is seeming to say no way, but they aren't really thinking that if they went through all of the pain and torture that Winston had to go through, wouldn't they too do anything that they could in order to make all of the tireless pain cease to exist with themselves? I wouldn't want to give in and begin to love Big Brother but...
@ Arman
ReplyDeleteI don't see any connection whatsoever between the wat prisoners are treated. Years ago there was the electric chair, but that killed people. Now, if you refuse to tell the truth, they don't use torture(at least in the U.S.) to squeeze the facts out of you.
@Inner Circle:
ReplyDeleteDo you think that the government doesn't want bad thoughts out in the universe? Or what are their motives in making everyone loyal before they die?
@class - Why did they torture Winston to the brink of death, but refused to kill him until they 'cured' him? I understood a lot of the government's thinking about how to endure as leaders, but I didn't understand this. He'll never have existed anyway, so why?
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think that Winston is completely okay with getting shot in the back even after he has been "cured" by the government?
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think of O'Brien's tactic of recording Winston promising to kill, poison, murder and steal? It seemed effective.
@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteThe goal of the torture his to break his resistance. He must be entirely and totally allied with them before he dies, so that there are no martyrs, no one can die for a cause. I think it's also possible that the "bullet to the head" is both literal and figurative. At the very moment when he finally began to love Big Brother, he took a figurative "bullet to the head", and the Winston we knew through out the entirety of the book died. At that moment, Winston is gone, and only a shell of who he was is left. He never could have seen that moment coming, he was "shot in the back of the head".
This situation that Winston went through is extremely similar to Jaycee Dugard's story. Her captor changed her mind to the point where she stopped resisting. It shows that people will break down when put in extreme conditions. The mind can always be changed.
ReplyDelete@Reid
ReplyDeleteI think that he was so freaked out about the rats that he did not know what else to do. He also was not thinking about what he was saying, just about his situation. I think the only reason that he did not betray Julia earlier is because she was the only person he was semi-happy with and she "supported" him.
@Class
ReplyDeleteSo do you think with this strong of a government anyone will ever be able to stand against it?
@Class
ReplyDeleteIs room 101 the same for everyone, or is it each individuals worst fears?
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteIt is because he was "cured" that he was okay with it. He loved the government, loved Big Brother, and anything they did was right in his eyes. That was the very point of the torture.
@Rick
ReplyDeleteI think that they did that because in their minds the greatest rebellion might be when someone dies hating the government. When Winston was talking about how they kill him, he will die hating the government. But until then he will act as though he loves it. And with the thought of dying hating the government, he was put back in the Ministry of Love to be cured even further. They want everyone to love them.
@Class
ReplyDeleteO'Brian seems to be making a game out of Winston. His only goal seems to be to make Winston love the government. He is able to change him but i don't think there is a way that someone can't be broken down by physical torture.
@Klarissa:
ReplyDeleteI think that the only way to stop this cycle would be to blow up the entire country. I don't think that will ever really happen.
@ Casey
ReplyDeleteI totally agree. If Winston and Julia would have truly loved each other, they would have died loving each other, and they would have taken all the pain instead of giving it to the other. The fact that they turned on each other broke my heart, because I thought they finally loved each other and they would stick together until the end.
@Baergen
ReplyDeleteRoom 101 is specific to each person. For one person it's drowning, for another it's snakes, etc.
@Baergen
ReplyDeleteI think it would be more effective for the government to use everyone's individual fears.
@ Rick
ReplyDeleteI think that the goal is to not let someone die as a stain on the perfect world of the Party. They didn't want anyone to die unloyal to them. I think it's more of a pride thing.
@Rick
ReplyDeleteI think the government tortured him just to torture him- it is so messed up, I think they just figured he was a traitor and danger to the government that he deserved to feel pain and then, just kill him to top it off.
@Baegen
ReplyDeleteRoom 101 seems to be different for everyone. It gives in the each of the individuals fears. Not everyone would have such a fear of rats as Winston did.
@Baergen
ReplyDeleteIt is the same, and different. It is the "worst thing in the world" for everyone, but what that means varies from person to person.
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you all think of O'Brien? Was anyone else really confused as to what all his character did and acted towards Winston?
@Baergen
ReplyDeleteI think that Room 101 is every ones worst fears. Although, even though rats aren't my worst fear, I would be freaked out if someone put a cage of them up to my face.
@Rick
ReplyDeleteI think that the government doesn't kill him because it shows that they are capable of getting what they want and that they are willing to do whatever it takes to stay in power. Also, most of the people wanted to die, but they kept them alive because it was a worse punishment than taking their lives. Big Brother would not want to give them the easy way out.
@Katie
ReplyDeleteI really don't think that they would even have a chance to blow up the government. If two people can't even have a relastionship, how in the world would they be able to blow up the government.
@ Klarissa
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. Because if they chose only 1 specific torture, it won't have the same or equal affect.
@Brooke I really don’t know what to think of the ending. There is no moral of the story or overall theme. Fahrenheit 451 was a cautionary tale about the dangers of burning books. But I really don’t see the moral in 1984. Orwell is preaching that the government will always win no matter what happens. The government is immortal and cannot be stopped.
ReplyDelete@Taylor:
ReplyDeleteDo you really think that the government would kill them like that? They don't want to kill them disloyal, so do you think that their fears are just a threat?
@Baergen
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't make sense that they wouldn't have killed him in the beginning because it doesn't seem like anyone would care. No one would stop and think, wow, big brother is pretty evil. They just live there lives and Winston would go missing unnoticed.
@Arman- In practicallity, there is certain relationships between how the people are treated now and even back then, that they have to be made into "normal" of our society. That there aren't really tortures but there are ways they use to manipulate people.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteO'Brien often was saying that Winston was sick in the mind or had a mental illness. Do you all believe that Winston had a mental illness? Or is his illness having the ability to be able to stand up against the government?
@ Baergen
ReplyDeleteI think that it would make sense to do it on and individual basis. It is true that they could figure something out that would terrify most people, but that is a rather inefficient method. It would make more sense to use whatever each individual is most afraid of.
@class - I don't think the brotherhood really exists in the way Winston thought it did. O'Brien claimed to be on Winston's side, then clearly was a part of the party and tortured Winston. He also claimed to have helped write Goldstein's book. What are your thoughts on that?
ReplyDelete@Brooke
ReplyDeleteYes. It was not really explained well I don't think. All of a sudden he was thrown in jail and then he turned into the villain of Winston in the ministry of love.
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteI think we overestimate ourselves. I think that we are weaker than we think. We can pretend all we want about how we wouldn't break, but we would. There would be no resisting in the end.
@Michael- I really didn't like the book's ending. I read a lot, and I guess I am used to happy endings, or at least endings where there is some lesson learned for the better. But the ending in 1984 is not for the better at all! I felt like the storyline was building it all up, and I expected something, at least a valiant effort. But no. Winston got caught without actually doing anything. They tortured him. And then he gave up. And that makes it more realistic, I think, but it's not really what people want to read in a story. I was disappointed.
ReplyDelete@Gabe
ReplyDeleteI think it's entirely possible to mentally break someone through torture. After undergoing the worst pain one can possibly imagine, and being faced with your worst fears, it would be very hard not to agree to anything, to grovel and cry and do anything possible to stop the pain. He was so terrified that he sold out a woman that he believed he loved. At that point, there's nothing that he wouldn't have done.
@Joe
ReplyDeleteExactly. They do that to everyone else so why was he different?
@Michael
ReplyDeleteI think the point of the book was government control and the individuality of the government. There might not seem to be a specific think that Orwell wrote the book for, but the overall idea was to demonstrate who powerful a government can become.
@ Class
ReplyDeleteHow do you think Winston lasted in Room 101 so long? I didn't think that his belief was that strong. I thought he was going to come to an end much sooner than he actually did. What do you think?
@Klarissa:
ReplyDeleteI was thinking maybe one of the countries they were at war with could drop a nuclear bomb.
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI think that O'BRien is a huge bully. I was really mad to find out that he was behind this, but on the other hand it didn't surprise me, I kinda figured that something like this was going to happen.
@Rick
ReplyDeleteI think the brotherhood doesn't exist. It is a legend designed to trap would-be rebels.
@class-
ReplyDeleteThe way that the torture is found in every single person in there society is extremely scary. How do you think the society knows everything about everyone? How do they know their fears?
@Michael--I think that is exactly what Orwell wants you to realize. Ultimately, how much power do we allow the government to have. How many things are the average American's oblivious to? To me, it is scary to realize how much we don't know.
ReplyDelete@Klarissa
ReplyDeleteIf all of the people stand together to overthrow the government, then there is a slight chance that they can throw them out. Most of the people are so brainwashed though that there are not enough of sane people to even think about overpowering Big Brother. Plus, no one knows who can be a member of the Thought Police or who is dedicated to the Party.
@Casey
ReplyDeleteI think that we would want to resist completely. But when it really comes down to it we couldn't do it. It's like how when we are with our friends I'm sure almost all of us have said these crazy stupid things that we would do but then when we are away we don't actually do anything like that. We want to be stronger than we really are.
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ReplyDelete@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteThe Party and Big Brother want absolute control. Although it doesn't matter, not even a little bit, whether the confessions of a prisoner are true or not, The Party just wants power over people down to the very last molecule in their body. But Winston was right, a prisoner could trick himself into believing what his torturers forced him to believe, but in the last second before death, where there is no more left to lose, the truth will seep out. And it angers the Party into perfecting the art of Brainwashing.
@Rick
ReplyDeleteThere's no way to know for sure. It might, it might not. It's entirely possible that the government invented it specifically to create more rebels. The party does not appear as strong if there is no enemy. In order to create a world like the one O'Brien described, a world fueled by hate and anger, the must be someone to direct that hate and anger towards.
@Savannah
ReplyDeleteExactly, I think people could then easily overthrough the government. I mean, I really don't think that everyone would be that afraid of rats!
@Elly
ReplyDeleteThey weren't going to kill Winston. They were always planning to change all of his thoughts to things appropriate for the party and big brother. That way there are more people loyal.
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteMy question is, why would Winston and Julia do the exact same thing? Why did they both say that they would have it done to the other person? Earlier in the book, this one man said that he would allow them to slaughter his family in front of him.
@ Elly
ReplyDeleteI think that he was remembering everything that he had promised to the brotherhood, but that wasn't enough. He then remembered Julia and how much he loves her, and he's trying to stay strong and not let her get hurt and he just wanted to get back together.
@Class
ReplyDeleteConstantly Orwell is mentioning "2+2=5". What is the huge significance of this being said so often?
@Brooke- I thought O'Brien's character was really complex. It was hard to tell if he was on Winston's side or not. One thing that O'Brien said, on page 238, "They got me a long time ago," made me think that he was actually on the government's side. Maybe he used to be like Winston, but the government got him and now he fights for the government- while feeling empathy for Winston. But maybe he is just trying to protect the Brotherhood when he tortures Winston. I think that Orwell wanted us to think about it.
ReplyDelete@class - on page 242, Winston talks about confessing everything; he even flat out lies saying he had been a spy in the Eastasian government since 1968! If the party knew everything, what is the point of Winston's false confessions.
ReplyDeleteI know this is a terrible thing to say, but I think Room 101 is a genious idea. If you want to get into someone's head or get them to confess something, I think that putting them against their biggest fear is the best solution. I actually believe that fear is worse than physical torture.
ReplyDelete@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteHave you actually been to each and every border in the U.S.? There is no way of knowing for sure whether everything we've been told is really true.
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteIt's the perfect example of the government's control over the people. If they can say 2+2=5 and people believe it, they have absolute control.
@Brooke-
ReplyDeleteThe understanding of 2+2=5 is an intriguing point brought up by the author, that in their society they control every solution and everyway somebody thinks. That they have no free will with something that makes no sense
@ Blake
ReplyDeleteI think that it's all brainwashing and belief. There are many things that people just say they are afraid of without actually knowing whether or not they really are. They just go with what Big Brother says and what keeps them alive and out of trouble.
@Blake
ReplyDeleteI think its beacause everyone is so brainwashed, that they really don't even know what they really are afraid of. They also probably know because of all the thought police. They are constantly being watched.
@Rick
ReplyDeleteThe government wants a victory so they will cure him and then kill so it isn't a waste. Maybe they feel less guilty by helping him and then disposing of him.
@Blake
ReplyDeleteThe telescreans monitor everything. They can watch whatever they want so they know exactly how everyone acys around certain things.
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI think that the significance is that this government is so powerful and has such a strong hold on everyone that they can change a persons mind. 2+2=4 is something that someone would think that they know for sure, but the government has the power to change that.
@Brooke:
ReplyDeleteI think that it is kind of saying that we only believe what we are told. 2+2=5 is just a representation. Numbers are not real. So, in theory. 2+2 COULD be 5. We don't know.
@Casey
ReplyDeleteI think it's because they are all to weak to take the pain themselves. They want all the pain to be on everyone but them. They are completely selfish. It's just as Julia was saying in her speech when her and Winston met again after the Ministry of Love.
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI think that the significance is that "2+2=4" is a basic fact that all kids learn at a young age. If the government can change something as basic as that, what's to stop them from controlling everything else?
The Party talks about how reality is comprised of only the mind of the person. In a sense, they're correct. Perception is reality. After WWII, and after the Nazis killed millions, some Germans went on, completely denying the events, and absolutely believing that the Holocaust never happened. But two things keep the legacy of the Holocaust alive. Those who acknowledge it, and the physical evidence. Both of which The Party in the book attempted to eradicate, any reality outside of the mind, outside of what reality they created.
ReplyDelete@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI think he is trying to prove his power!
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI think that O'Brien was like an undercover agent. If you think about it, he had recordings of his and Winston's conversation when Winston joined the Brotherhood. He could have easily started to record their conversation when he 'turned off' the telescreen. O'Brien also had everything that he needed. He found out where Winston and Julia's 'hideout' was. It would have been easy for O'Brien to put the telescreen into the room.
@ Elly
ReplyDeleteThat's true. Fear can eat you alive. It's the worst thing you could ever experince, in my opinion.
@Brooke - I think the math problem is said again and again because it is something that is seemingly so basic, and so obvious. Yet the government is saying that 2+2 doesn't equal 4, and if they can do that, then they can change anything.
ReplyDelete@Arman-
ReplyDeleteYou bring up a good point, that these people honestly are just trying to stay alive and not really thinking about what scares them, but what will actually happen to them at the same time.
@Blake- I don't necessarily think that the government knows EVERYONE'S fears and thoughts. I think they have gotten really good at knowing certain people's fears and thoughts, and they make examples of them. They choose the people and execute the punishments,and they are fantastic at doing it in such a way that others are afraid to do anything about it.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteIt's not about whether things are real or not. Its about how the government got people to believe certain things. It is about power and how no one questions it.
@ Elly
ReplyDeleteI don't think that it's a horrible thing to say. the atomic bomb wasn't a "peacful" option and it wasn't meant to be a good undestructive tool. I agree that it's a genuis type of idea. That doesn't mean inventions or ideas are supposed to be a positive outcome.
@Rick
ReplyDeleteThe government just likes to hear how much control they have over the people. Over time, they can make everyone think about whatever they choose.
@ inner cirlce
ReplyDeletePerhaps they are trying to deflect the true religion in the world, which is the religion of Big Brother.
@Elly
ReplyDeleteI think you're absolutely right. It was the pure terror itself that finally got him to betray Julia. I think it was that fear that finally broke him down to the point that they wished him to get to.
@Class
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Big Brother exists as an actual person or is he just a symbol?
@Rick I think the Brotherhood is the scapegoat for The Party. The Brotherhood is the yin to The Party’s yang. They are fire and ice. As long as The Party exists The Brotherhood will exist. The Party uses The Brotherhood as a way to prove that they are right. The Brotherhood won’t go away because The Party needs them as the way to show how powerful the government is. It weird to say but the two parties need each other.
ReplyDelete@ Class
ReplyDeleteWhen Winston stepped in front of the mirror, it was the final conformation that 1984 mirrored WWII. The body that Winston described as his own, was what the body of a Jewish person from a concentration camp would be like. Class, what other examples, other connections are there in the book to WWII?
@Joe
ReplyDeleteIt's like "spoon feeding" from history class. The government is so powerful, that people just blindly follow it.
In torture chambers in Europe from the early times the had tools to make the innocent confess or be killed or if you confessed you would still be killed. However people thought if they confessed they would be let free unharmed. Winston probably thought the same thing.
ReplyDelete@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI definitely think that he is a symbol.
@Brooke:
ReplyDeleteI think he is a concept. I think he IS the party. I think that every person in the party is a little part of big brother.
@Heidi
ReplyDeleteYou are so right in saying that perception is reality. When you are living in a place like Winston is, there is no person to say anything bad to about your government except the government, and that is different than in Hitler's time because then the Jews had places like America to go to and tell what was going on. But for Winston, if the government doesnt want anything getting out, they will do what they have to to silence him and make sure no one ever finds out.
@Heidi
ReplyDeleteWinston does nothing but drink gin all day. When soldiers came back, a lot of them became alcoholics because of PTSD.
@Blake
ReplyDeleteI think overall, people may have individual fears, but generally they are all afraid of the same thing, the government. I think that it all boils down to the same thing.
@Baergen
ReplyDeleteWhat makes you think that he is a symbol? I agree that he is just a symbol though.
@ Blake
ReplyDeleteI agree that it is extremely scary, but I think it is easy for them to figure out what everyone's fear is. There are telescreens everywhere. Because the people are monitored all the time, it is easy for the telescreens to eventually figure out everyon's fear.
@Heidi
ReplyDeleteI think that that is a very good point. If someone already doubts something, and the only thing making them believe it is solid evidence is suddenly gone, what is left to believe in that thing anymore?
@Heidi
ReplyDeleteThat is very true. As long as there is no evidence there is no past... To the present mind. We don't have concrete evidence on how the dinasours acted but we do know how Columbus got to the Americas. Through documentation.
@Willie
ReplyDeleteYou are exactly right.Except in history we are aloud to break our spoons and challenge the system. Big Brother would not allow you to break the spoon. You must follow him or be punished.
@Willie
ReplyDeleteThat is very true. Its hard to imagine people completely following the government because it seems obviously wrong. But it has happened in the past many times, so how do we know that it won't happen again?
@Heidi-
ReplyDeleteThere's a lot of symbolization off of the way a single leader seems like a genius and they want to follow him, like many thought about Hitler at the time, and still makes people think that there are superior races in the world, like they thought about themselves.
@ class
ReplyDeleteCould you imagine being sentenced to death, and then trying to move faster toward it? To want to "fix" your mind quicker so that death will come all the more quickly.
@Heidi - I agree with your comparison from Winston's experience in the Ministry of Love to the Holocaust, but the Jewish were forced to work for the government or killed. In this story, it's as if the Germans transformed the Jews into people of their perfect race.
ReplyDelete@Inner Circle:
ReplyDeleteI HATE Julia. She is a horrible person. She's too vain. She never loved Winston. She just used him.
The Party can change anything because they control the minds of the people. The world is all about perception and suggestion. If the people believe is then it will be. That is how The Party controls the people through changing their perception and telling them what to believe.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteLike Julia, I think we have all said big things and talked big talks, but are in the end realize we just aren't strong enough.
@Heidi
ReplyDeleteI think that's an excellent connection. In my opinion, reality exists in both the mind and the physical world. There are some things we can't deny. I am typing this on a laptop, the laptop is sitting on a table. However, there are some realities that I can create and make true, simply by convincing myself of them. I could tell myself that this laptop is out to get me, and convince myself that it is true. I could create my own new faith, or tell myself that no one in this class is real. In that sense, reality can be both physical and mental.
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteI think it's crazy that someone would try to inflict pain on someone else just to prevent yourself from looking ugly.
@Casey
ReplyDeleteI think its because they all just want the torture to end. When you have something terrible going on in your life, don't you just want that terrible thing to end as fast as possible? Imagine if that was your whole life...It's hard to warp your mind around.
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI think that Big Brother is an idea as a way to control the people. It might have started out as one person, but for Big Brother to be effective more people would have to be involved. So I think Big Brother just turned into a symbol of the government.
@Casey
ReplyDeleteI could not imagine it. It seems impossible. If I knew I was going to die I would loose it, and give up. I wouldn't try to fix myself for the government if they were going to kill me anyway.
@Joe
ReplyDeleteIn 1984, you are simply tortured to the point of where you no longer want to break the spoon. Then given another spoon. Are the pushups and lack of cookies "torture"?
@Casey
ReplyDeleteI think that if I were in the same position that Winston was in I would probably do the same thing. He was being tortured, and from what was described, I would want it all to end in one way or another.
@ Class
ReplyDeleteIf the telescreen in Winston and Julia's room hadn't have heard about Winston's fear of rats and Julia's love of beauty, do you think that the thought police would have had to wait longer to capture them? If they hadn't of known Winston and Julia's fear, they wouldn't know what to torture them with in Room 101. Do you think another way to keep from being captured by the thought police is to not let them know your biggest fear?
@Class- Do you guys think that when George Orwell wrote 1984, he was writing it as a warning? Or do you think that he was writing it just as a story?
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think he was trying to give the world a warning about where they were heading. The ending is too sad for just a story...
@Class
ReplyDeleteDo you think the Brotherhood actually exists?
@Class
ReplyDeleteI think they did not kill them because they wanted to use them as an example. If I saw Julia on the street with the scars on her face, I would not dare challenge Big Brother.
@Kate
ReplyDeleteWell can there really be a perfect person in this society? Julia was just trying to live a life similar to before Big Brother and becuase of all the restrictions and reprocusions she wasn't able to. She isn't necesarily a terrible person she was just trying to be free.
@Class
ReplyDeleteThe inner circle has been talking about Julia a lot, what do you all think about this character?
@ Eliza
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, are your eyes betraying you? Are you sure that you feel your fingers typing on the laptop? How do you know that you aren't lying on a lab table, giving these feelings by a simulator or something?
@Reid
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't exist. The party made it up to catch would-be rebels.
@Reid
ReplyDeleteHard to know for sure, but I would sa yes. I just tend to think that there is.
@ Klarissa
ReplyDeleteThat is true, although today, we all try hard to only say and promise what we know we can pull of, only pushing the boundaries. I have much respect for those who, like Winston, talk big, but it is very important that they also come through on what they say, which is where Winston falls back.
@Emma:
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I'm not sure. I think it is probably a warning, but it also might be a really messed up story.
@Willie
ReplyDeleteYes it is torture. She wants to see how serious we are about challenging the system. Also to see how far we would go for the rewards.
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ReplyDelete@Joe - I don't think they wanted to use him as an example, because no one will ever know they existed. They will have no legacy, so I don't see what good the extreme torture would be in showing the world an example.
ReplyDelete@inner circle
ReplyDeleteDo you guys think that Winston really believes what he is telling himself? 2+2=5? That he loves Big Brother?
@Emma-
ReplyDeleteI think that he did insist that there would be something significant that would happen, because already we are starting to think and act as they are in their society, that we are kind of constrained to think in a certain way.
@ class
ReplyDeleteIn the part of the book when Winston was nursing himself back to health, why do you think he bothered? Why did he try to get his strength back when he knew that death was coming?
@Joe
ReplyDeleteWould you know that those scars are becuase of Big Brother though? They made such a great image of themselves that people wouldn't automatically asume it was big brother. If you saw someone with a scarred face oon the street today would you just asume it was our government? Would you asume it was in a war or just an accident?
@Willie
ReplyDeleteBut I still think that the possibility for the brotherhood does exsist. I mean, I think that if we precieve things only one way, we will never understand. What if the government truly even didn't exsist. How can you trust anything, let alone yourself in a society like this.
@ Inner circle
ReplyDeleteBig Brother is God. Albeit the bad version. God is the idea of love, to me at least, and he will never die because he is an idea. And no matter what happens to a person who carries the idea, it will still live on (V for Vendetta, anyone?) Big Brother will never die as long as he has those who follow him, who believe in his ideas (The Party), who remember him. Hitler now lives in immortality, despite negative connotations, because we won't forget his ideas and his legacy (even though we find him and his actions repulsive.)
@Klarrissa
ReplyDeleteI Think it exists aswell, however the Brotherhood, Winston was in was irrevelant.
@inner circle
ReplyDeleteI think that he wished the Proles would do something. But the Proles were just content with how life was.
@Toni
ReplyDeleteI think that in the very end of the book, Winston really believes that he loves Big Brother. I don't get quite why he loves Big Brother now that they just won a war or on the road to winning. Winston wants to believe that he loves Big Brother but in the end when he is going to die or get shot, his last few moments, he really might die hating Big Brother.
@Klarissa
ReplyDeleteIf the brotherhood does exist, it's very lazy. What have they done to bring down the party?
@Michael:
ReplyDeleteThat is a messed up moral. Do what you're told? What kind of moral is that? Really!
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteDid you read the ending words? At the back, it said that this book was meant to be a warning of what is to come.
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ReplyDelete@Arman
ReplyDeleteYes, I don't think that making a promise to yourself to do something like that is wise. In Winston's case, he really didn't understand the extremes that the government would go to stop him, so I don't think he should have ever made that kind of a promise to himself.
@Katie
ReplyDeleteIf it keeps you from being tortured, you'd follow that moral also.
@Gabe
ReplyDeleteThat's a good point. You would have to know his story. And as Rick said, nobody will know. No one will realize whate happened to Julia and Winston.
@ Rick
ReplyDeleteYes, but Orwell was not attempting to show exactly what happened in WWII, just the horrors of the Holocaust and the power-driven, vicious, disturbing motives and actions of the Nazis
I thought it was interesting that in the end, Winston never did die. He was 'doomed', he was going to be shot in the head, but it never happened. He never did die. Although, I will say he seemed to die morally, but not physically like he expected.
ReplyDelete@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteI think Taylor's point is basically the same as Micheal's. Taylor just believes that the individual has to ban together. But, Micheal is saying the INDIVIDUAL alone cannot change anything. Taylor just beleives that those individuals can join together to change things. Taylor is just looking at a more broad individuality. Individuality in a group...
@Willie
ReplyDeleteTrue, but there is always still the possiblity of it. As much power as the government has, I think that people could still have the power to overthrow it. I don't know, I still agree with you that the fact that they would be pretty lazy then.
@INNER CIRCLE
ReplyDeleteThe story was cautionary. It was his idea of what life was going to be like in 1984. It could be a warning that if totalinarianism continued, the world would end up like this form of unthought system.