What do you all think about Winston's plan of renting Mr. Charrington's upstairs room for Julia and himself? Do you think that his plan might backfire in that he might find out what he and Julia are doing and report them?
@Arman I don't think Mr. Charrington will turn them in. Even if he know what they're doing, he doesn't seem like the person that would turn them in. He sells antiques from the past, which shows that he holds onto it.
@Arman I think taht this plan of renting Mr.Charrington's upstairs room for Julia and himself has a chance of backfiring and someone reporting them. I feel like little things are private and easy to discover.
@Maggie--It is an interesting thought. I feel like there are at least a few people who are rebellious and corrupt, but it is hard to tell if the majority of people are. If they are they are hiding it really well.
@maggie- I think there is possibility that the other people in the Party are corrupt but not as abundant, but there will always be those people who want to corrupt the Party from the inside out.
The plan is highly intelligent because there is no telescreen. Winston and Julia can have privacy in this spare room. I don't think they will be ratted out because the shopkeeper seems to like Winston after he bought the journal and coral.
@Maggie I don't think very many people are because they are just following the crowd. They do what they are told because it's easier and they don't even notice they are being controlled.
@Inner Circle You said Winston knows what the government is doing and how it is changing literature. Does this imply that he is in their confidence. I know he's not in the inner group, but they must trust him enough to allow him to do his job.
@Class: Winson learned the line from the rhyme, "Oranges and lemons say the bells of St. Clements" and Julia teaches him, "You owe me 3 farthings say the bells of St. Marvins." She is too young to have been alive when that poem was popular, so where did she learn it?
@Kathryn I totally agree with you. I hadn't really thought about how the antiques represent where his true colors are. I don't think he will turn them in either.
I think that some of the members may be as corrupt but I doubt it. It seems as though all of the other members are loyal to Big Brother and do not think about anything but representing Big Brother.
@Maggie I don't think the other party members are as corrupt as Julia and Winston. They are probably to scared to do anything. The party members want to but just don't want to be vaporized by the thought police.
@ Arman I doubt that the store owner would report them. It's mentioned that Mr. Charrington has surmised what they are up to, and he likely doesn't mind or he wouldn't have lent them the room. We have to remember that he is not a member of the party.
@Arman Yes, I think it is a very bad idea for Winston and Julia to rent out that room. They could easily get caught. Then again, with all of the cameras everywhere, they could get caught anywhere pretty easily.
@Kathryn C. I dont think that they trust him. The government just knows that nobody is going to do anything because they no if they do anything they will be punished.
It is interesting that Winston rented the upstairs room. I don't think that Mr. Charrington would report them to the thought police. I think Mr. Charrington is against the government because he spends his time with antiques, selling relics of the past. He seems like he wants to only remember times before the revolution. I think the room is a safe place for Julia and Winston. There aren't telescreens so it is a safe place for them to talk.
@Maggie I don't think everyone is corrupt because many people don't remember as much as some others. Most of the people in the society fallow the crowd and just go with whatever the goverment says.
I think the powerful part about the song that the prole woman was singing, was that the song was written tunelessly and without much significance, but she sung it with enthusiasm, with a tune. She put life to it. Winston noticed this and also commented how a party member would never sing out loud. It shows how the proles are much more free and they swallow what the government gives them, but they aren't consumed by the zealousness or strict rules that are the party. Which honestly, the freedom the party grants the proles is a smart move, it's controlling the masses by letting them be. The proles won't revolt unless they are forced to, which leads me to believe that the rebellion will come within the government itself.
@Katie Julia participates in a lot of underground activities and she is very opposed to the government. She probably just heard this from an older person that is also in these underground things and keeps the old legacy before Big Brother.
Why do you think that Julia is so particular about the way that they were each to use to get back to the open meadow? She has this all planned out and seems to know everything about this place and about how they can safely sneak around.
@Katie I think that Julia might have learned the rest of the poem from one of her family members like her grandfather or someone. She would have been young but she could still remember the line if she had been told about it when she was little.
@Nia: How can you be sure? I think the entire society is like a play. Everyone is acting, no one shows their true self, for fear of being vaporized. We don't know anything about this society except for what we know through Winston, and he doesn't know much about the other areas of the party.
@Vanessa I think that the government wants people to forget te past to insure the governments power. The government wants to stay well in power and not want anything to arise and over power the goevernment so they keep all possibilties of that very low by people forgetting the past.
Julia seems to be an incredibly corrupt person in 1984's society and she has likely found others who remember when things used to be better and know the rhyme.
@Vanessa the government is just seeking control. They also have their own way of thinking and their own opinions of how people should live and act. They are trying to change the whole world and if people remember how to world was, they will question how the government is changing the world now.
@Katie I think Julia knows a lot more than even Winston because she has been dealing with going behind the government far longer/more than Winston ever has. Going behind the government is relatively new to Winston.
@Maggie Some of them might be. The majority is probably a lot like how Winston described Katherine, unquestioningly orthodox. The others are probably much like Winston and Julia, or at the opposite end of the spectrum, where they are orthodox to an overzealous point.
@Arman- The main point of this was to understand the fact that they couldn't be followed, that they won't be caught so they have to plan accordingly, so that they can't be hunted down and eventually found.
@Kathryn I am not sure what that is supposed to mean yet, because the Proles don't seem to remember or want to remember anything. I am not sure how they are going to help if they don't have any knowledge. However, maybe not speaking and not seeming to know anything is their plan. Maybe they will use their knowledge in the future to surprise people.
@ Lauren I agree with the fact that it's a possibility people might not corrupt. The society are oblivious to other ideas and only follow the government. Do these people want to think for themselves or is the government and easy way out?
@Nia: Maybe. I can't stop thinking about Julia's line; "I think I'm better at finding things out than you are, dear." I think that will have extreme significance later in the book.
On page 143 Winston is wondering about the past and if it was normal to lay in a double bed on one's own time and not worry about getting caught. He wonders if it were normal to actually be in love. He says, "Surely there could never have been a time when that seemed ordinary." It is crazy to me that he has to wonder this. It is crazy to me that the government is so uptight that people have never even seen a double bed. It is weird to think...what if in the future people actually wonder this? What if our government gets this controlling? Will we end up like this?
@Vanessa I think that the government has more control over the people if they control the past. If no one knows what the world was like before Big Brother, then they do not realize that the world used to be better than it is now. Controlling the past also helps prevent rebellions because Big Brother can make the people think the way they want them to.
But the amount that she knows about this seems to be far more than any other person that might know the area. She knows way to much, it seems, to just be that she doesn't wan anyone to know/see it.
At this point, it's hard to tell what Julia is. Is she a spy? Does she truly hate the party, or is she just a good actor? Our suspicion as readers leads us to believe she is a spy, she's just too good to be true, but on the other hand she could just be a cunning and rebellious girl who wants to break every big rule possible. Either way, she's going to spur Winston into action.
@Vanessa I think the government wants the people to forget the past because maybe the Party came to power in a less than ethical way. If the people found out then it would be catastrophic for the Party. The government would be labeled hypocritical for stopping other rebellions.
I think that Julia knows more but in the same way so does Winston. Julia knows more about the party but Winston knows more about the past and the time before the revolution.
The fact that the "pure" party has corrupt members shows that each member of the party is an individual. Each person has their own thoughts about the actions and decisions of the government.
@Blake I think it shows that image is everything. The "pure" party is probably the most corrupt because they have the most power just like in our society. In our society the most corrupt are the most powerful because they can force things on others and their own actions aren't looked into carefully because it's hidden.
@Reid I like what you said about the food. That's true.Is it possible that Winston is portraying that as well? I mean, he keeps having memories appear and he seems convinced that the government is wrong and the world should go back to the way it was, but is was the past so great?
@Savannah I agree with you. The majoriity of the population seems to be fallowing the goverment as an easier way out. Maybe a few want to think for themselves but the others rely on an upper power to make choices for them.
@Colleen- I think there is possibility that this could actually happen, the way it is portrayed in this book of being so apart from each other, that we tend to be this way too, that things are missing these days that should be here, information we don't have.
@Inner Circle Winston refers to himself as a dead man because he will die. It is an inevitability, he has committed though crime, he will be vaporized, even though he hasn't been yet, he will be caught. It's rare that people aren't, as we've already seen. They rebel in small ways because that's the only way that they can rebel without being immediately vaporized. I don't think that Julia or Winston really want to take down the government, they just simply don't want to follow all it's rules.
@Colleen I think that in the future people will wonder thoughts similar to this because trends and things like that die out. I don't remember a lot of things that existed 50 years ago. I don't think that our government will turn into a huge controlling monster.
I think that the rebelions do eventually want to make a difference in society. But for now they just like the idea that they are rebeling. They will try to take action later but they are in no hurry.
Is anyone else disturbed by the rapid progression of Julia and Winston's relationship? They speak--they meet--he says he wanted to bash her brains in--and then they have sex? What is that?
@Katie I'm not saying I agree with this - but even Julia could be with the government, she could be secretly against Julia. I don't think this is the case, however at this point everything is so twisted, that anything at this point could be a possiblity. I agree with what you said about everyone acting in a play. I tend to think that people don't really know how to believe in one individual thing for themselves. People don't remember what individuality is.
Julia is definitely a catalyst for Winston. Since meeting her, Winston is very different and more heavily breaking the rules and challenging the system.
@Michael: I think that the Party's rise to power was probably something similar to something Hitler or Stalin did. They probably gained power and then they turned into a dictatorship. Also, I don't know that anyone would be brave enough to even THINK anything bad about the party.
It's always a possibility. That's why education is so important, to keep situations like in 1984 from happening. But at the rate which we (the US) are discarding education, it is a very realistic possibility. It's terrifying, isn't it? My suggestion? Go to College ;)
@Moritz I see how Julia could be a catalyst because she is trying to do the same thing as Winston and she gave him the oppurtunity to fulfill his goal; but also, I don't think she is a catalyst because Winston was already on the track to corrupt the system before he met her.
@inner circle He probably doesn't take a bigger stand because it's not likely to make any difference at all. Maybe one man could make a difference in a government like ours (though even that is very unlikely), but in this government he'll either end up hated by the public or flat out ignored.
@Joe I think that all rebelions rebel to try and change sometjhing. Right now I don't think that they have thought enough ahaead to try and make a big change. I do think that they will later try to make a change when it is the right time.
I wonder if Winston can remember more about the revolution or if other people can remember more but don't want to remember because of what happened. If the people experienced a bad thing then they might not want to keep reliving bad memories.
@mmoritz It's not a relationship. I think it is just Julia using Winston, and WInston does not bother to think about it. He is just having a good time. I don't think it will last. Once Winston realizes he wants to focus on the rebelion, he will leave Julia.
Winston wanted to bash in Julia's head because he was under the impression that she was a member of the thought police and she wanted to kill him. He still thought she was beautiful but she was a suspect in his mind.
@Moritz I think that they are just doing it for the idea that they are. They didn't think very hard about it because they could be dead just thinking about being in a relationship. I think their relationship will come to a harsh end because it happened so fast.
@Moritz I think it's too rapid. I don't think they know what they are doing, or at least they aren't thinking it through. But, the idea of a speedy relationship seems to be a theme in many novels. For example, Romeo and Juliet had a very quick relationship. they knew each other for a few days. But, I think the fast relationship adds to the plot, because it speeds up hormones and makes the character act quickly.
THAT is the influence of society. Sure Julia and Winston hate and rebel, but it's impossible to escape influence entirely. Julia may not use newspeak, and she may have had sex with scores of men to spite the party, but she's so desensitized to their violent life that she merely brushes his comments of rape and murder off.
Winston's and Julia's relationship is driven by a sense of rebellion and a hatred of the government more than it is driven by pure emotion. Where most relationships today progress with love, Winston's and Julia's relationshiip moves in a more negative way. Winston only loves Julia because she is against the government.
@mmoritz I don't think so. I don't think Winston is going to do anything on a large scale anyway. I think e and Julia are sort of separate entities, their goals are very different.
@Toni That is true- that Winston may know more because of his age, but at this point I think they are equal with this kind of knowledge. I think they both have their own ways of finding out information.
I think that Winston is so desperate to be wanted and now that he has someone that wants him he is kind of confused with what he is feeling. I don't think that he knows how to deal with these emotions.
@mmoritz I think Julia is a catalyst because she has made Winston look at society differently. He looks at the world around him through a different lens. But I think Julia will have a larger role than Clarisse in that she won’t disappear after they meet. She is very much a catalyst but not in the way that Clarisse was.
@mmoritz- It doesn't seem as if a relationship is there, there is absolutely nothing to show for, that once something big happens (in a sense of the decline of the Party) he would leave her, but he would be nothing without her help.
@Toni I think there is a possiblity that there are people who remember like Winston does. The only reason we don't hear as much from them is because they wouldn't want to risk being agaist the goverment for a little memory.
@Savannah: When we wrote about the events leading up to 1984, it was mostly revolving around WWII. We decided that big brother was a mix between Hitler and Stalin. So the answer is yes, there are some major components that do reflect WWII.
I absolutely think she plays the same role, but I think she will be more involved and possibly even drag Winston in a direction he doesn't want to go. Whether she is good or bad guy remains to be seen, but either way, she's going to affect him.
@ mmoritz I'm very disturbed with Winston's and Julia's relationship. It's only personal pleasure, there isn't any "true love" emotion or caring for each other. Love has multiply meanings and I don't think Winston isn't educated as well to know those meanings.
@Blake I disagree. Winston would not be nothing without Julia. He had already been trying to challenge before Julia. He may have gone slower, but he would have reached the same point in the rebellion if Julia wasn't there.
I think that many other people are too afraid to remember anything from the old days. Some may be brainwashed and some may be afraid, but, like you said, no one wants to remember the past, for one reason or another. The people just know of the past, but don't want to remember it because they also know that the thought police and the rest of the government is very serious about ensuring that people guilty of thought crime are punished to the fullest.
@Class- Rick brings up a good point, how sex is portrayed so much in the book, whay is so substantial about this? What was the intent on placing this into the book?
@mmoritz I thnk it is a wierd progression in today's society, but I think it is a great relationship in their society. I don't think that anyone is this book really has a spectrum of emotions and they are just putting names to what they are feeling.
I think O'Brian will eventually become involved in Winston's life. At the moment, Winston's life has been taken over by his feelings for Julia. Eventually, when he stops chasing after this girl, he will calm don and be able to confide with O'Brien.
@Reid I agree their relationship is based off the fact that they are the only two people who know that the government is corrupt. It is that shared knowledge that brings them together.
I find it interesting that throughout the book, Orwell uses that term "making love." While making love and having sex are the same thing, I feel that Julia and Winston are not making *love.* They are just having sex. They only think that they are in love. They are really only doing what they are doing for the heck of it.
@Blake this reminds me of in Macbeth the movie clips we watched. When Lady Macbeth read the letter and was convincing macbeth to murder the king, all three used sex to get their way. It's all about hormones driving someone to do something they wouldn't normally do.
@Class Do you think Orwell is writing about what he thought was going to happen? I think its more of a warning. He is multiplying ever bad aspect of society.
@mmoritz Winston and Julia's relationship is very disturbing. They seem more like they are useing each other for a cause, may it be for personal pleasure or to help the "rebelion." Julia seems to know this, but Winston doesn't seem to see their relationship for what it is.
@Katie--I think she is a dumb girl who uses sex to get what she wants. I think she talks a big game about rebellion, but you will see as you get further in the book, it's all talk. She is frustrating to me because her "depth"--is pretty darn shallow.
I think that right now, sex doesn't seem to have a very significant roll, however, I think that later on in the book it will prove to be rather significant.
I think Julia explained it in the book "When you make love you're using up energy; and afterwards you feel happy and don't give a damn for anything. They can't bear you to feel like that...All this marching up and down and cheering and waving flags is simply sex gone sour." Orwell, and every author, communicates their ideas through their characters. If you read carefully, any symbolism or moral or explanation is hidden inside characters actions and verbiage.
I think that Orwell decribed sex the way he did because he wanted to frighten readers with a vision of a future where nothing is fun and nothing is good. Love can't even be enjoyed.
@Colleen- That's so true, that there seems to be no emotion involved at all, it just happens. In maybe some ways it is truthfully lovingly, but it's not blatent at all.
I don't really like Julia. She seems to me to be corrupting Winston's mind even more than the government is. I don't think she is like Clarisse because they have different goals. Clarisse just wanted to talk to Montag and plant simple ideas in his mind, but Julia I think is after a bigger thing.
@Inner Circle Since Big Brother can be related to Hitler and Stalin, I think that there are also other parallels to the real world. It isn't just a fun story with random events.
@Gabe I agree Orwell is using 1984 as a cautionary tale. He is warning future generations about the dangers of a totalitarian government. This is similar to Fahrenheit 451 where Bradbury is warning us of the dangers of book burning and an ignorant society. These two books are cautionary tales.
@Willie--There might be feeling for Winston...but I agree with Moritz that Julia is just using him for sex so she really doesn't feel anything. She just wants him to think she does, therefore, he does.
I don't think that Julia really knows what else she can do to rebel. All she knows is sex. She knows how to get men to go along with her and help her with learning more for the rebellion through sex.
@Gabe I think it's more of a political commentary about what was going on in the world back then. However, it's entirely possible that it stands as a little of both. I think certainly you can connect it to today. History doesn't repeat but it rhymes, right? Human nature hasn't changed much from 1949 to today, and so we're still able to make connection between our society and the book, even today.
I think that there is a deeper meaning to this book. It wasn't just written to show what the government could've been like. Even if you read a childrens picture book there is a deeper meaning to look for. There is a lot of symbolism, showing lots of deeper things that we have to look for.
The path Winston saw the government taking may have led him to write this book about a terrible future. This book may have impacted many people to try to change the path the government took.
This book has so much in it! So many connections and thought provoking passages. You have to look for them! I agree with Rick, it's not just a fun story. It's a classic piece of literature that is teeming with thoughts. But you don't really have to look for them, the whole book is one or even several ideas with hundreds of smaller ideas supporting it.
everyone is talking about the government. We've sort of gone off the idea that Big Brother is in control. I don't think it's a monarchy, I think people are just led to think that. But who leads them to this conclusion?
@Willie I don't think that Julia is a member of the thought police because I don't think that she would go that far for undercover. I don't think that the government would tell her to do something like that.
How does WInston change in this section? Particularly pertaining to his wife, Katherine.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you all think about Winston's plan of renting Mr. Charrington's upstairs room for Julia and himself? Do you think that his plan might backfire in that he might find out what he and Julia are doing and report them?
ReplyDelete@ Class
ReplyDeleteDo you think that the majority of the party is as corrupt as Julia and Winston are?
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteWinston's feelings seem to change. They are softening and he doesn't seem to care about as many things the big brother administration has established.
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI think that Winston is kind of becoming more rebellious because of Julia.
@Arman
ReplyDeleteI don't think Mr. Charrington will turn them in. Even if he know what they're doing, he doesn't seem like the person that would turn them in. He sells antiques from the past, which shows that he holds onto it.
@ Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI think that Winston changed a lot in this section. He solidified that heh didn't love Katherine anymore and that he did love Julia.
@ Maggie
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of the people are possibly corrupt too, I think the government causes people to put on a fake face.
@ Kathryn
ReplyDeleteWinston change in personality is similar to the saying " Sometimes it takes a woman to make a man a man".
@Armon
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Winston and Julia renting out the room could backfire very easily.
@Maggie
I don't think that everyone is as corrupt but I do believe that there are more people that are corrupt.
@Arman I think taht this plan of renting Mr.Charrington's upstairs room for Julia and himself has a chance of backfiring and someone reporting them. I feel like little things are private and easy to discover.
ReplyDelete@Maggie--It is an interesting thought. I feel like there are at least a few people who are rebellious and corrupt, but it is hard to tell if the majority of people are. If they are they are hiding it really well.
ReplyDelete@maggie- I think there is possibility that the other people in the Party are corrupt but not as abundant, but there will always be those people who want to corrupt the Party from the inside out.
ReplyDelete@Arman
ReplyDeleteThe plan is highly intelligent because there is no telescreen. Winston and Julia can have privacy in this spare room. I don't think they will be ratted out because the shopkeeper seems to like Winston after he bought the journal and coral.
@Maggie
ReplyDeleteI don't think very many people are because they are just following the crowd. They do what they are told because it's easier and they don't even notice they are being controlled.
@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteYou said Winston knows what the government is doing and how it is changing literature. Does this imply that he is in their confidence. I know he's not in the inner group, but they must trust him enough to allow him to do his job.
@Maggie
ReplyDeleteI am sure that some other people are as corrupt as them, but not everyone is the same as them.
@Class:
ReplyDeleteWinson learned the line from the rhyme, "Oranges and lemons say the bells of St. Clements" and Julia teaches him, "You owe me 3 farthings say the bells of St. Marvins." She is too young to have been alive when that poem was popular, so where did she learn it?
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you. I hadn't really thought about how the antiques represent where his true colors are. I don't think he will turn them in either.
@Maggie
ReplyDeleteI think that some of the members may be as corrupt but I doubt it. It seems as though all of the other members are loyal to Big Brother and do not think about anything but representing Big Brother.
@Maggie
ReplyDeleteI don't think the other party members are as corrupt as Julia and Winston. They are probably to scared to do anything. The party members want to but just don't want to be vaporized by the thought police.
@Class
ReplyDeleteWinston says that if there is hoope it lies with the Proles. What do you think their role is/will be in the future?
@ Arman
ReplyDeleteI doubt that the store owner would report them. It's mentioned that Mr. Charrington has surmised what they are up to, and he likely doesn't mind or he wouldn't have lent them the room. We have to remember that he is not a member of the party.
@Arman
ReplyDeleteYes, I think it is a very bad idea for Winston and Julia to rent out that room. They could easily get caught. Then again, with all of the cameras everywhere, they could get caught anywhere pretty easily.
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhy does the government want people to forget the past?
@Kathryn C.
ReplyDeleteI dont think that they trust him. The government just knows that nobody is going to do anything because they no if they do anything they will be punished.
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI haven't thought about that yet. It would seem like Big Brother would have to trust everyone in the party because of what is needed to be done.
@ Arman
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting that Winston rented the upstairs room. I don't think that Mr. Charrington would report them to the thought police. I think Mr. Charrington is against the government because he spends his time with antiques, selling relics of the past. He seems like he wants to only remember times before the revolution. I think the room is a safe place for Julia and Winston. There aren't telescreens so it is a safe place for them to talk.
@Maggie
ReplyDeleteI don't think everyone is corrupt because many people don't remember as much as some others. Most of the people in the society fallow the crowd and just go with whatever the goverment says.
@inner circle
ReplyDeleteI think the powerful part about the song that the prole woman was singing, was that the song was written tunelessly and without much significance, but she sung it with enthusiasm, with a tune. She put life to it. Winston noticed this and also commented how a party member would never sing out loud. It shows how the proles are much more free and they swallow what the government gives them, but they aren't consumed by the zealousness or strict rules that are the party. Which honestly, the freedom the party grants the proles is a smart move, it's controlling the masses by letting them be. The proles won't revolt unless they are forced to, which leads me to believe that the rebellion will come within the government itself.
@Katie
ReplyDeleteJulia participates in a lot of underground activities and she is very opposed to the government. She probably just heard this from an older person that is also in these underground things and keeps the old legacy before Big Brother.
With the chocolate the longer you go without a food the more your opinion on its flavour changes and diminishes.
ReplyDelete@ Outer Circle
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think that Julia is so particular about the way that they were each to use to get back to the open meadow? She has this all planned out and seems to know everything about this place and about how they can safely sneak around.
@class- What do you think is so important about having corruption in the "pure" party? What can it reflect on today?
ReplyDelete@Katie
ReplyDeleteI think that Julia might have learned the rest of the poem from one of her family members like her grandfather or someone. She would have been young but she could still remember the line if she had been told about it when she was little.
@Nia:
ReplyDeleteHow can you be sure? I think the entire society is like a play. Everyone is acting, no one shows their true self, for fear of being vaporized. We don't know anything about this society except for what we know through Winston, and he doesn't know much about the other areas of the party.
@Vanessa I think that the government wants people to forget te past to insure the governments power. The government wants to stay well in power and not want anything to arise and over power the goevernment so they keep all possibilties of that very low by people forgetting the past.
ReplyDelete@Katie
ReplyDeleteJulia seems to be an incredibly corrupt person in 1984's society and she has likely found others who remember when things used to be better and know the rhyme.
@Vanessa
ReplyDeletethe government is just seeking control. They also have their own way of thinking and their own opinions of how people should live and act. They are trying to change the whole world and if people remember how to world was, they will question how the government is changing the world now.
@Katie
ReplyDeleteI think Julia knows a lot more than even Winston because she has been dealing with going behind the government far longer/more than Winston ever has. Going behind the government is relatively new to Winston.
@Maggie
ReplyDeleteSome of them might be. The majority is probably a lot like how Winston described Katherine, unquestioningly orthodox. The others are probably much like Winston and Julia, or at the opposite end of the spectrum, where they are orthodox to an overzealous point.
@Vanessa
ReplyDeleteThey keep it hidden so that people won't notice that the past was better than the present and people won't want to rebel.
@Arman- The main point of this was to understand the fact that they couldn't be followed, that they won't be caught so they have to plan accordingly, so that they can't be hunted down and eventually found.
ReplyDelete@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI am not sure what that is supposed to mean yet, because the Proles don't seem to remember or want to remember anything. I am not sure how they are going to help if they don't have any knowledge. However, maybe not speaking and not seeming to know anything is their plan. Maybe they will use their knowledge in the future to surprise people.
@ Lauren
ReplyDeleteI agree with the fact that it's a possibility people might not corrupt. The society are oblivious to other ideas and only follow the government. Do these people want to think for themselves or is the government and easy way out?
@Nia:
ReplyDeleteMaybe. I can't stop thinking about Julia's line; "I think I'm better at finding things out than you are, dear." I think that will have extreme significance later in the book.
On page 143 Winston is wondering about the past and if it was normal to lay in a double bed on one's own time and not worry about getting caught. He wonders if it were normal to actually be in love. He says, "Surely there could never have been a time when that seemed ordinary." It is crazy to me that he has to wonder this. It is crazy to me that the government is so uptight that people have never even seen a double bed. It is weird to think...what if in the future people actually wonder this? What if our government gets this controlling? Will we end up like this?
ReplyDelete@Vanessa
ReplyDeleteI think that the government has more control over the people if they control the past. If no one knows what the world was like before Big Brother, then they do not realize that the world used to be better than it is now. Controlling the past also helps prevent rebellions because Big Brother can make the people think the way they want them to.
@Savannah
ReplyDeleteThe people seem to mostly be unresistant to the government, so they simply want the easy way out of playing "follow the leader".
@ Blake
ReplyDeleteBut the amount that she knows about this seems to be far more than any other person that might know the area. She knows way to much, it seems, to just be that she doesn't wan anyone to know/see it.
@ Arman
ReplyDeleteAt this point, it's hard to tell what Julia is. Is she a spy? Does she truly hate the party, or is she just a good actor? Our suspicion as readers leads us to believe she is a spy, she's just too good to be true, but on the other hand she could just be a cunning and rebellious girl who wants to break every big rule possible. Either way, she's going to spur Winston into action.
@Vanessa I think the government wants the people to forget the past because maybe the Party came to power in a less than ethical way. If the people found out then it would be catastrophic for the Party. The government would be labeled hypocritical for stopping other rebellions.
ReplyDelete@Klarissa
ReplyDeleteI think that Julia knows more but in the same way so does Winston. Julia knows more about the party but Winston knows more about the past and the time before the revolution.
@ Blake
ReplyDeleteThe fact that the "pure" party has corrupt members shows that each member of the party is an individual. Each person has their own thoughts about the actions and decisions of the government.
@Blake
ReplyDeleteI think it shows that image is everything. The "pure" party is probably the most corrupt because they have the most power just like in our society. In our society the most corrupt are the most powerful because they can force things on others and their own actions aren't looked into carefully because it's hidden.
@Reid
ReplyDeleteI like what you said about the food. That's true.Is it possible that Winston is portraying that as well? I mean, he keeps having memories appear and he seems convinced that the government is wrong and the world should go back to the way it was, but is was the past so great?
@Savannah
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. The majoriity of the population seems to be fallowing the goverment as an easier way out. Maybe a few want to think for themselves but the others rely on an upper power to make choices for them.
In response to the inner circle discussion, do any of you see Julia as a catalyst like Clarisse was for Montag?
ReplyDelete@Colleen- I think there is possibility that this could actually happen, the way it is portrayed in this book of being so apart from each other, that we tend to be this way too, that things are missing these days that should be here, information we don't have.
ReplyDelete@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteWinston refers to himself as a dead man because he will die. It is an inevitability, he has committed though crime, he will be vaporized, even though he hasn't been yet, he will be caught. It's rare that people aren't, as we've already seen. They rebel in small ways because that's the only way that they can rebel without being immediately vaporized. I don't think that Julia or Winston really want to take down the government, they just simply don't want to follow all it's rules.
@Colleen
ReplyDeleteI think that in the future people will wonder thoughts similar to this because trends and things like that die out. I don't remember a lot of things that existed 50 years ago. I don't think that our government will turn into a huge controlling monster.
I think that the rebelions do eventually want to make a difference in society. But for now they just like the idea that they are rebeling. They will try to take action later but they are in no hurry.
ReplyDeleteIs anyone else disturbed by the rapid progression of Julia and Winston's relationship? They speak--they meet--he says he wanted to bash her brains in--and then they have sex? What is that?
ReplyDelete@Katie
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying I agree with this - but even Julia could be with the government, she could be secretly against Julia. I don't think this is the case, however at this point everything is so twisted, that anything at this point could be a possiblity. I agree with what you said about everyone acting in a play. I tend to think that people don't really know how to believe in one individual thing for themselves. People don't remember what individuality is.
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteJulia is definitely a catalyst for Winston. Since meeting her, Winston is very different and more heavily breaking the rules and challenging the system.
@Michael:
ReplyDeleteI think that the Party's rise to power was probably something similar to something Hitler or Stalin did. They probably gained power and then they turned into a dictatorship. Also, I don't know that anyone would be brave enough to even THINK anything bad about the party.
@ Colleen
ReplyDeleteIt's always a possibility. That's why education is so important, to keep situations like in 1984 from happening. But at the rate which we (the US) are discarding education, it is a very realistic possibility. It's terrifying, isn't it? My suggestion? Go to College ;)
@Moritz
ReplyDeleteI see how Julia could be a catalyst because she is trying to do the same thing as Winston and she gave him the oppurtunity to fulfill his goal; but also, I don't think she is a catalyst because Winston was already on the track to corrupt the system before he met her.
@Mrs. Moritz
ReplyDeleteI think people don't remember how to truly fulfill their lives, so they are willing to go to extremes that they might regret later.
@Inner Circle:
ReplyDeleteThis book might turn out like Farenheit 451 and not have a full-blown rebellion, only a small, hidden one.
@inner circle
ReplyDeleteHe probably doesn't take a bigger stand because it's not likely to make any difference at all. Maybe one man could make a difference in a government like ours (though even that is very unlikely), but in this government he'll either end up hated by the public or flat out ignored.
@Joe
ReplyDeleteI think that all rebelions rebel to try and change sometjhing. Right now I don't think that they have thought enough ahaead to try and make a big change. I do think that they will later try to make a change when it is the right time.
@class
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Winston can remember more about the revolution or if other people can remember more but don't want to remember because of what happened. If the people experienced a bad thing then they might not want to keep reliving bad memories.
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteIt's not a relationship. I think it is just Julia using Winston, and WInston does not bother to think about it. He is just having a good time. I don't think it will last. Once Winston realizes he wants to focus on the rebelion, he will leave Julia.
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteWinston wanted to bash in Julia's head because he was under the impression that she was a member of the thought police and she wanted to kill him. He still thought she was beautiful but she was a suspect in his mind.
@Moritz
ReplyDeleteI think that they are just doing it for the idea that they are. They didn't think very hard about it because they could be dead just thinking about being in a relationship. I think their relationship will come to a harsh end because it happened so fast.
@ Katie
ReplyDeleteWhen we were researching reasons why Orwell would write 1984, do you think he's writing his own story about WWII?
@Moritz
ReplyDeleteI think it's too rapid. I don't think they know what they are doing, or at least they aren't thinking it through. But, the idea of a speedy relationship seems to be a theme in many novels. For example, Romeo and Juliet had a very quick relationship. they knew each other for a few days. But, I think the fast relationship adds to the plot, because it speeds up hormones and makes the character act quickly.
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteI think Clarrise wass just a spark of change, but Julia kind of leads him farther into rebellion.
@ mmoritz
ReplyDeleteTHAT is the influence of society. Sure Julia and Winston hate and rebel, but it's impossible to escape influence entirely. Julia may not use newspeak, and she may have had sex with scores of men to spite the party, but she's so desensitized to their violent life that she merely brushes his comments of rape and murder off.
@ Moritz
ReplyDeleteWinston's and Julia's relationship is driven by a sense of rebellion and a hatred of the government more than it is driven by pure emotion. Where most relationships today progress with love, Winston's and Julia's relationshiip moves in a more negative way. Winston only loves Julia because she is against the government.
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteI don't think so. I don't think Winston is going to do anything on a large scale anyway. I think e and Julia are sort of separate entities, their goals are very different.
@Toni
ReplyDeleteThat is true- that Winston may know more because of his age, but at this point I think they are equal with this kind of knowledge. I think they both have their own ways of finding out information.
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteI think that Winston is so desperate to be wanted and now that he has someone that wants him he is kind of confused with what he is feeling. I don't think that he knows how to deal with these emotions.
@mmoritz I think Julia is a catalyst because she has made Winston look at society differently. He looks at the world around him through a different lens. But I think Julia will have a larger role than Clarisse in that she won’t disappear after they meet. She is very much a catalyst but not in the way that Clarisse was.
ReplyDelete@mmoritz- It doesn't seem as if a relationship is there, there is absolutely nothing to show for, that once something big happens (in a sense of the decline of the Party) he would leave her, but he would be nothing without her help.
ReplyDelete@Toni
ReplyDeleteI think there is a possiblity that there are people who remember like Winston does. The only reason we don't hear as much from them is because they wouldn't want to risk being agaist the goverment for a little memory.
Julia drives me crazy!!!
ReplyDelete@Savannah:
ReplyDeleteWhen we wrote about the events leading up to 1984, it was mostly revolving around WWII. We decided that big brother was a mix between Hitler and Stalin. So the answer is yes, there are some major components that do reflect WWII.
What happened to O'Brien? In previous sections Winston emphasized his importance, but now he kind of drifted off for the moment. Thoughts?
ReplyDelete@ mmoritz
ReplyDeleteI absolutely think she plays the same role, but I think she will be more involved and possibly even drag Winston in a direction he doesn't want to go. Whether she is good or bad guy remains to be seen, but either way, she's going to affect him.
@ mmoritz
ReplyDeleteI'm very disturbed with Winston's and Julia's relationship. It's only personal pleasure, there isn't any "true love" emotion or caring for each other. Love has multiply meanings and I don't think Winston isn't educated as well to know those meanings.
@inner circle
ReplyDeleteIt is almost like Julia is bribing Winston with the chocolate and the coffee that she is bringing every time they meet.
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteJulia has quite a few different mindsets and attitudes, making her an interesting character.
I think Julia and Winston care about each other in away that they rely upon each other and care for the companionship.
ReplyDelete@Moritz
ReplyDeleteI think that Winston is not really atracted to Julia- other than the fact that he really likes the idea that she rebells, a lot!
@Blake
ReplyDeleteI disagree. Winston would not be nothing without Julia. He had already been trying to challenge before Julia. He may have gone slower, but he would have reached the same point in the rebellion if Julia wasn't there.
@mmoritz:
ReplyDeleteWhy? I don't really like Julia, but she doesn't completely drive me crazy.
@ Toni
ReplyDeleteI think that many other people are too afraid to remember anything from the old days. Some may be brainwashed and some may be afraid, but, like you said, no one wants to remember the past, for one reason or another. The people just know of the past, but don't want to remember it because they also know that the thought police and the rest of the government is very serious about ensuring that people guilty of thought crime are punished to the fullest.
@Class- Rick brings up a good point, how sex is portrayed so much in the book, whay is so substantial about this? What was the intent on placing this into the book?
ReplyDelete@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteI thnk it is a wierd progression in today's society, but I think it is a great relationship in their society. I don't think that anyone is this book really has a spectrum of emotions and they are just putting names to what they are feeling.
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteCould O'Brien be more like Clarisse? He showed up, Winston thinks he has the same view as him, then he disappeared.
@Reid
ReplyDeleteI agree. Winston and Julia need each other for comfort while they attempt to be rebellious.
@ Kathryn C.
ReplyDeleteI think O'Brian will eventually become involved in Winston's life. At the moment, Winston's life has been taken over by his feelings for Julia. Eventually, when he stops chasing after this girl, he will calm don and be able to confide with O'Brien.
@Reid I agree their relationship is based off the fact that they are the only two people who know that the government is corrupt. It is that shared knowledge that brings them together.
ReplyDelete@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteI think she's a tad irritating, but she's young, and the way she thinks is a little odd. I don't mind her too much, at least not yet.
I find it interesting that throughout the book, Orwell uses that term "making love." While making love and having sex are the same thing, I feel that Julia and Winston are not making *love.* They are just having sex. They only think that they are in love. They are really only doing what they are doing for the heck of it.
ReplyDelete@Blake
ReplyDeletethis reminds me of in Macbeth the movie clips we watched. When Lady Macbeth read the letter and was convincing macbeth to murder the king, all three used sex to get their way. It's all about hormones driving someone to do something they wouldn't normally do.
@Class
ReplyDeleteDo you think Orwell is writing about what he thought was going to happen? I think its more of a warning. He is multiplying ever bad aspect of society.
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteWinston and Julia's relationship is very disturbing. They seem more like they are useing each other for a cause, may it be for personal pleasure or to help the "rebelion." Julia seems to know this, but Winston doesn't seem to see their relationship for what it is.
@Katie--I think she is a dumb girl who uses sex to get what she wants. I think she talks a big game about rebellion, but you will see as you get further in the book, it's all talk. She is frustrating to me because her "depth"--is pretty darn shallow.
ReplyDelete@Toni:
ReplyDeleteI think Julia is playing a similar role in the book to Clarisse, pushing Winston to rebell.
@ Blake
ReplyDeleteI think that right now, sex doesn't seem to have a very significant roll, however, I think that later on in the book it will prove to be rather significant.
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteI think Julia explained it in the book "When you make love you're using up energy; and afterwards you feel happy and don't give a damn for anything. They can't bear you to feel like that...All this marching up and down and cheering and waving flags is simply sex gone sour." Orwell, and every author, communicates their ideas through their characters. If you read carefully, any symbolism or moral or explanation is hidden inside characters actions and verbiage.
@ Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteI think that Orwell decribed sex the way he did because he wanted to frighten readers with a vision of a future where nothing is fun and nothing is good. Love can't even be enjoyed.
Plan on finishing up about 10 after.
ReplyDelete@Colleen- That's so true, that there seems to be no emotion involved at all, it just happens. In maybe some ways it is truthfully lovingly, but it's not blatent at all.
ReplyDelete@Colleen
ReplyDeleteSo it's just sex crime with no feeling?
I don't really like Julia. She seems to me to be corrupting Winston's mind even more than the government is. I don't think she is like Clarisse because they have different goals. Clarisse just wanted to talk to Montag and plant simple ideas in his mind, but Julia I think is after a bigger thing.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteSince Big Brother can be related to Hitler and Stalin, I think that there are also other parallels to the real world. It isn't just a fun story with random events.
@Gabe I agree Orwell is using 1984 as a cautionary tale. He is warning future generations about the dangers of a totalitarian government. This is similar to Fahrenheit 451 where Bradbury is warning us of the dangers of book burning and an ignorant society. These two books are cautionary tales.
ReplyDelete@Willie--There might be feeling for Winston...but I agree with Moritz that Julia is just using him for sex so she really doesn't feel anything. She just wants him to think she does, therefore, he does.
ReplyDelete@Inner Circle:
ReplyDeleteDo you think that this book might be a political commentary on when Orwell was writing this book?
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Julia really knows what else she can do to rebel. All she knows is sex. She knows how to get men to go along with her and help her with learning more for the rebellion through sex.
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteIs Julia actually a member of the thought police? She could be under a really intelligent cover spying on Winston.
@Gabe
ReplyDeleteI think it's more of a political commentary about what was going on in the world back then. However, it's entirely possible that it stands as a little of both. I think certainly you can connect it to today. History doesn't repeat but it rhymes, right? Human nature hasn't changed much from 1949 to today, and so we're still able to make connection between our society and the book, even today.
I think that there is a deeper meaning to this book. It wasn't just written to show what the government could've been like. Even if you read a childrens picture book there is a deeper meaning to look for. There is a lot of symbolism, showing lots of deeper things that we have to look for.
ReplyDelete@ Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteThe path Winston saw the government taking may have led him to write this book about a terrible future. This book may have impacted many people to try to change the path the government took.
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteThis book has so much in it! So many connections and thought provoking passages. You have to look for them! I agree with Rick, it's not just a fun story. It's a classic piece of literature that is teeming with thoughts. But you don't really have to look for them, the whole book is one or even several ideas with hundreds of smaller ideas supporting it.
everyone is talking about the government. We've sort of gone off the idea that Big Brother is in control. I don't think it's a monarchy, I think people are just led to think that. But who leads them to this conclusion?
ReplyDelete@Willie
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Julia is part of the thought police. If she was I think that something would have happened by now.
@Willie
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Julia is a member of the thought police because I don't think that she would go that far for undercover. I don't think that the government would tell her to do something like that.