She's not happy, she tried to commit suicide and then the people came and brought her back to life for 50$ and made her forget that she attempted suicide
@class In Montag's world, happiness is irrelevant; society is focused on television and doesn't think like Clarisse does, which explains why Montag does not know how to respond her question.
I think it's easier to say you're happy until someone questions your happiness, and if he had never met Clarice he might have never wondered whether or not he was truly happy.
@class- Basiclly, the way that montag is portrayed as unhappy plays into effect that he honeslty doesn't have a great life, that the things he does aren't right, that free thought needs to be used against the ways everyone thinks.
@Kathryn I think she is severely depressed. Like when she majorly OD'ed on sleeping pills. She is sort of this half-human, depressed, thing. She isn't really aware of the world around her, yet it's slowly killing her.
@innercircle Montag narrates, “He felt that if his eye itched, she might blink. And if the muscles of his jaws stretched imperceptibly, she would yawn long before he would,” (Bradbury 11). What does he mean by this? How is this significant to his friendship with Clarisse?
I tend to think that Clarisse is far more normal than any of the other people in the society. I think she sees things that others won't be able to see.
Q: What was the significance of Clarisse asking if Montag is happy?
A: I think MOntag needed to ask himself that because, when he did,he realized he wasn't happy. I think he will try to be happy now. Maybe Clarisse will help him find his happiness.
@Class, it is an interesting idea, do you think that the reason that Clarisse is sort of a loner is because she thinks of the world differently than kids her age, or is there something more than that?
@Ellen - Today she would just be being nice, but in this story (because no one ever spends time outside) she is an outsider, someone different. Guy probably views her as sketchy, but us as readers see her as just a nice person in touch with nature.
@innercircle The significance to Clarisse asking him if he was happy was that in the society in that day and time is that she may have the perspective that no one is really happy, and she was trying to make him really wonder if he is happy. Eventhough he wants to believe he is happy i think he, if he digs deep, knows that he is really not that happy. He is just going through the motions of life.
The relationship between Montag and Clarrise reminds me of Ralph and Piggy because neither Ralph nor Montag expected to build a friendship with this other person, but when Piggy and Clarrise are gone, it affects both Ralph and Montag.
I think it is significant because he is not happy even though he wants to convince himself that he is. It opens up his perspective on how he views his life. He realizes how different his life is from what he thinks his life is like.
@willie- you know i have to agree with willie that Clarrise develops the understanding in montag that he really is unhappy, because of the way she portrays society and how reading isn't a bad thing towards free will.
I think this book's feel and society is kind of like the communist times. Everyone lives in fear of each other, anyone could be a spy for the government, like Mrs. Blake ratting out on that one woman for harboring books. You can trust no one. And there is so much death and unhappiness.
Clarisse is a strange character in this book because even though she seems normal to us, she is completely different from every other person in this society. This makes her very contrasting and a force for change in this book. This means she is normal or sketchy, depending on which frame of reference you look at her from.
@Inner Circle, she probably doesn't have a disease, but because she is so different than everyone else, we jump to the conclusion that she does have a disease. Just because she's different, a bit of a rebel, doesn't mean there's something wrong with her.
@Ellen- I think she is one of those people who, if she lived in this time, then she would probably be called a nerd- although she just has a different way of seeing the world.
@Kathryn- She appears to be depressed... She takes sleeping pills. But I wasn't really clear on how she sleeps. Her eyes are always open...?
Montag doesn't think like Clarrise. He is focused on his world and his job involved with the government. Clarrise's reaction was pecculiar when she met Montag and realized he was a firefighter. I think Clarrise is one of the characters willing to challenge the system. I'm unsure about Montag willing to follow Clarrise's actions
@Class I don't think that the wife is sick, I think that she is so blinded and numbed by society and TV that she doesn't realize what she is doing, and she can't. This just represents how everyone follows what the government tells them to, and she is just like everyone else but Clarisse.
@Class why do you think that Clarisse is so unafraid of the world around her? Firefighters are terrible, kids her age are shooting each other, why is she so calm?
Since this society is so damaged, it seems to me that being stuck in the past is a good thing. She has better morals than people like Mildred or The Captain.
@arman- so far, montag shows the way the average people are today in society, just stuck in between the fact of what's right and what should be done to make things right. Clarrise shows the freedom found under governmental rule that the system can be challenged by just the smallest of characters. Beaty kind of seems like he may be the form of government containing people.
@Klarissa- I think he is hiding a book or two. And I think it was in the vent, in the wall, not the ceiling? I believe he got the book from the old man he met in the park, which he keeps mentioning although we have not heard the entire story yet.
I think Bradbury is trying to make Clarisse so normal that he makes her seem extreme in the opposite way (of society; of the norm) just to prove his point. it's like overcompensating for all of the absurdity (of society and of the government) with another kind of absurdity.
We have to remember that this is not set in our society and time, so the actions of the characters that we find strange may be perfectly normal to them.
@innercircle i believe that Clarisse is normal...as in the set of the book the time frame her mind is in is different then the time in the book,she is older in her mind then in her body it seems, but i do believe that she is strange. That does not mean she has a mental illness.
If there is a book hidden behind the grill, then this shows how he was already questioning the way government had set society, or at least he had at one time.
@Ellen I think that she is so calm because her view on society is different from the rest of the world's. She comes from a background where they challenge the system and they do what makes them happy. (Her uncle)
I think that in the future the government wants people to get caught up in TV and society. They take away people's books so that that doesn't get in the way.
@Inner Circle- Clarisse is normal it is society that portrays her as “antisocial”. The reason she is ostracized by her peers is because the social norm is for people not to have really deep philosophical conversations. She is a victim of society.
@Ellen I think that Clarisse is unafraid of the world around her because she is not afraid to believe in things that other people are afraid to believe in.
I like Clarrise's train of thought. She thinks outside the box even when she is aware of the future. She asked Montag if he read any of the books he burned, and Montag answered devensively.
@Rick I think that the government doesn't want the general public to realize the power that they could have. This is obviously a very very oppressive government. The people in books, however, are rebellious. They do what they want because they can, and to challenge the system. The government doesn't want the people to realize that they too, could challenge the system, so they burn all the evidence of what their society could be.
I was wondering if Captain Beatty was a "closet reader" because the way he could quote and all of the knowledge he demonstrated. Which brings me to the point that I think the government banned books to take away the public's intelligence so that they'd be easier to control.
@Savannah-I agree that Montag acted defensive. Could this show his guilt (if he is guilty) and do you think Clarrise sees that Montag is hiding something?
@Ellen- I think that, although Clarisse is aware of the fact that such violence happens, she has never been directly exposed. She stated that several of her friends had been killed, but she also stated that she had no friends, which leads me to believe that she merely was speaking of classmates she was not very close to or fond of. Its like today in society, children are very used to seeing blood and violence on TV and in movies. Something similar may have happened then, only to a more extreme extent, so children are used to blood and violence happening around them in person.
If someone with a real thirst of power was somehow elected to office, he could potentially team up with other politicians to censor information to the public.
@ Joe Enough people must have challenged the government that they felt their power was insecure. Perhaps it was an attempt to create peace by taking away the public's ability to know whether or not they disagree.
@Inner Circle You keep thinking and questioning if Clarisse is normal and what is wrong with Montag's wife, but you have to think in their society's terms. Katie has a great point about society been addicted to tv, so maybe that is why they are so against books.
@Joe she does have the same values as the past, but not only that, the way she looks at things in this book is that she has much deeper thoughts than most people. She also knows more about the past then others. (ex. the firefighters...what their job was compared to what their job is now..)
@inner circle-They probably cleaned her blood with the thinking like that of in Renaissance time when they cut a person, thinking that it would clean the blood when it actually hurt the person more.
@ Heidi I agree that the government may have taken away the intelligence of the people. It is easier to control other people when they only know what you want them to know. For example, the hound that they had at the firestation only knew what the people wanted it to know. They mention that they can change the way that the hound speaks and acts.
@Ellen Well, apparently generations have digressed as they go into the future. I think the book is trying to show that even though we are supposed to progress as we go into the future, the exact opposite is happening.
I completely agree. Clarisse mentioned how none of the other firemen would have even looked at her, but Montag did. The fact that his mind was open to her "ludicrousness", it shows that he had already been contemplating the governments control and society.
I think eventually Clarisse will fill Montag up with all of these questions about the government, MOntag will get to a point where he challenges the system.
Does Montag really know what happiness is? At the beginning of the story he was content with burning books; it brought him to a normal state of mind at least to him. Montag might not even know what happiness truly is. His wife might be a possible drug addict or did she fake the whole incident? I think if Clarrise hadn't asked Montag these quetions, he might of never thought about a different world where firefighters put out fires and people could be themselves without the government after them.
@emma- the way the mechanical hound is portrayed in this book, seems like he shows the absolute technology of the future and how it can control us and force us to be the best and obtain the best.
@Emma-I wonder what the Hound could be. At first I thought it was a metaphor for the firs engine, but now I think it could be something specifically designed to be like a storage cabinet with secret info or something.
@Emma that Hound... Thing. Is crreeeeeeeeppppyyy! Ugh I hate it. It obviously knows what Montag is hiding, and it is using it against him. Do you think the Hound is like the equivalent of a Dalmatian? Is that the new firehouse dog?
@Inner Circle- Any thoughts on the firemen handbook saying that Ben Franklin was the first book burner and founding member of the firemen? Could this be a form of propaganda?
@Ellen- The government can control what is published, I think they only burn books that were published long ago, because the firemen have rule books. The government wants only their point of view seen.
@class-Maybe the script doesn't have a happy ending and the government recognizes that the society won't have a "happy ending" and they don't want people getting any ideas. Could this be why books are banned?
In this book i think that it shows many timeless factors...such of how people are still addicts to drugs..but it also shows how society advances and the government changes..making our society and their society vastly different and almost non-comparable. Their societies norms are much different than ours today, and our norms are much different than 10 or 20 years ago. We usually don't compare our everyday life to back in the day
At some point I read that the books "didn't agree with each other." which actually says a lot. It says the government wants only one mind set, only one truth or way of being.
That is definitely propaganda for the government to keep people from knowing the truth about history and how life used to be better before they came along. If that information got out, they would be pushed out of power.
I just can't understand how any one would want to burn books and make them illegal. Why would anyone want to stop people from reading? I'm interested to find out why books are illegal.
@Ellen- TRUE! The dalmatian... I didn't think of that! Also, since Montag does not appear to have any personal relationships with the government (so far) the Hound can represent the government.
@class - Okay, so we talk about the 'government' having so much control over people's lives and TV. Who is the government? They burn books, but allow kids to kill each other? Who are the leaders that control this world?
@Michael, the people of this "nation" are obviously very under-educated. They believe that their government is everything. It's like their "God". Therefore, they will believe anything that the government spoon-feeds them, even if it is total crap, such as the Ben Franklin thing. These people obviously put way too much trust in their government.
@Toni-I think books are illegal because of their content. Fantasy stories sometimes cause kids to live with their heads in the clouds. I don't think the government want that. They want to build a society of business, serious people.
I think Montag could be hiding something. I'm unsure of what, but could it be books maybe or something the government is against? I notice with many people if you ask them a serious question that tries to pour out the truth, they won't look you in the eye, the answer is immediate without thought, and its a huge sign something is not right. The person who is trying to uncover the truth, they are important for social change and challenging the system.
When Clarisse didn't show up when Montag was walking home, I got a really bad feeling in my gut. Was she put in the asylum or did they kill her or arrest her? Or did something happen? I think if anything happened to her, then I think it will set Montag off.
@Elly I think the dog represents the people in society because the dog only knows what the creators of it wants it to know. The people only believe what the government wants them to. They do their jobs and then go on with their lives.
@Heidi- That is so true, about the one mindset. I wonder if they wanted from the start for it to be their own mindset, or if all they wanted was one mind set, and they didn't care what, but made it their own out of necessity.
Probably some very awful people, unfortunately. It's probably hard to say exactly who these people are, but obviously they are very powerful and we might learn more about them later on in the book.
@Emma Woof woof! But in today's society, and apparently this future society, the government has way more control over the TV stations than it does books. Like with Osama bin Laden. The TV stations weren't allowed to broadcast much information about him for quite a few years, because the government didn't want the information to incriminate them or expose too much information. However, numerous books were published on the subject. The government really doesn't control books, because books are set up as an open forum. Television, however, is not that open forum.
@Class Why does Montag take the time to listen to Clarisse? What do you think is so interesting to Montag about Clarisse that make him listen and even agree with what she says?
@Willie So what do you think will make Montag do so? What did Clarisse say that was deep enough to make Montag want to stop burning books or think about it.
@eliza what defines a normal society is the society at which you live in. What you are born into is what you believe is correct. Others may think it strange, but to you it is normal.
@Klarissa- I think Montag stops and listens ot Clarrise because she's different. Human nature is curiosity, and Clarrise just came along with the strangest attitude to Montag and provided a new experience that Montag is drawn to.
@inner circle Can you actually force a society to be one way? It doesn't matter how many people want change, but there will always be someone who will try to keep society to keep things the way they are.
@Ellen- I think these people put way to much faith in their government because books are being burned. They don’t know what to believe and what not to believe; there are no other sources of knowledge other than the government so, they have to believe what the government tells them. The government has a monopoly on the flow of knowledge.
@inner circle I think that the point of this book is to make us aware of how things could possibly be in the future. So we think about the direction that our society is going.
@Ellen I would guess not. They can censor television and provide the information they want the public to have and only that, but it's much harder to censor the internet.
We are talking about the government banning books. But did they not also ban individualism in a sense? At least that's what I took away from when Montag looked around at his fellow firemen, and saw that they all looked exactly the same.
@Elly I partially agree, but the firemen and government workers are higher in society. Government wants people to be the same, but government is controlling them, and therefore, they are higher is society than the average person. And the firemen are also regarded higher because they "protect" everyone form books, and the people are so used to being controlled, they do not even realize it.
@Toni- The government does not make everyone take sleeping pills. Only Mildred, and I think that the doctor probably works for the government. So the government is, in a way prescribing them. The sleeping pills almost certainly have an effect on who she is. I wonder what she would have been like if she had never taken sleeping pills.
@class What caused the government to form this ban on books. Often the authority needs a reason or complaint to do something. Could the citizens have brought this on themselves?
No one is normal! Everyone has there own little quirks that make them unique. So when trying to be like someone else all you are doing is taking on more quirks. Clarice, it seems, is one of the only ones that isn't striving to take on other peoples quirks.
@Ellen- About the internet- probably not. In a place where media is controlled so strictly, I don't think something as open as the internet would be allowed to exist.
I definitely agree. By censoring the information that the public receives, they are also keeping them from thinking for themselves, and it takes individual thought to create people who act and look differently.
@Klarissa- I don't think that Montag will turn her in because it seems like he has a secret that challenges the system. Personally, I wouldn't turn someone in if I were doing the same thing.
I think we as readers can become socialogists and bring our thinking into the story to try to think beyond the thoughts of believing actions are bizzare or normal.
@Class Since Clarisse appears to be challenging the government, do you think Montag will turn her in. Is he too loyal to his government, or is he nice enough to protect her?
@katheryn the government banned books probably because they show thought to an alternate society and may give people thoughts on how things could be...
@Ellen- I don’t think Internet exists in this society. It was written in the 1950’s, when TV was becoming really popular. The concept of Internet didn’t really exist yet. I think Bradbury focused it more on television and its role in society because television was the up and coming fad at the time. He is warning us about the dangers of TV.
@Vanessa I think on the top of page 18 Montag is crying and feeling very vulnerable because he has been exposed to this new way of thinking, but the source of this thinking (Clarrise) is gone and now he's like a kid that is left with hardly anything to go on.
@inner circle I think part of the hound's symbolism is that everything in this society is done quickly and effectively. The hound can kill its target in seconds, with no error. A traditional dog can't do that. The government wants everything done their way, without fail.
@Vanessa- Montag is having a nervous breakdown.... I think he is being overwhelmed by all the new information and ideas his brain is processing, not to mention everything else going on in his life.
@inner circle- The government can be repreented by the character Beatty who wants constraint on government, and creates a group of followers of the firman to follow his ways to control free thought.
The government is anyone who holds authority in the society. I wouldn't say that the government is this society as a whole, as there are many people who don't control most of what happens to them.
I agree. I think that the book is trying to warn us or show us what could happen if we don't except and appreciate the way people are. It is trying to tell us that it is important to allow self-expression and, although there may be disagreement, it is still important to except people and their thoughts.
@Class- What do you guys think is going on outside of where ever it is Montag lives? I mean, in his individual country, this is how it is. But what about the other countries around it? Or on the other side of the world? Has Montag's government conquered the entire world?
@Michael That is true about Ray Bradbury warning us about the dangers of TV. But there has to be more than that. I mean, could this whole book really be about the prominence of TV? It technically could, because at the time, TV was the craziest thing ever. It would be like going from no Internet to having Internet. It was just a huge leap for the world to make, and I think that Bradbury wanted it to go slower.
@Vanessa i also agree with you. Without people and their free thoughts society and technology would never advance...everything would essentially be at a stand still...frozen in time...
@emma That's an interesting question. Well, look at life now, America is living very differently than people in China or Africa. I think it's just in Montag's country that this is happening, but other areas have problems too.
So. What are y'all's thoughts about Clarisse? Sketchy? Normal?
ReplyDelete@class: What's wrong with Montag's wife? Is she sick?
ReplyDelete@inner circle
ReplyDeleteI think that Clarrise acted as a catalyst for Montag and triggered his questioning of his life and of society
@ kathryn
ReplyDeleteShe's not happy, she tried to commit suicide and then the people came and brought her back to life for 50$ and made her forget that she attempted suicide
@class
ReplyDeleteIn Montag's world, happiness is irrelevant; society is focused on television and doesn't think like Clarisse does, which explains why Montag does not know how to respond her question.
Is it Clarisse's different thinking than all of society that makes Guy really think about if he's truly happy?
ReplyDelete@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteI think it's easier to say you're happy until someone questions your happiness, and if he had never met Clarice he might have never wondered whether or not he was truly happy.
@class-
ReplyDeleteBasiclly, the way that montag is portrayed as unhappy plays into effect that he honeslty doesn't have a great life, that the things he does aren't right, that free thought needs to be used against the ways everyone thinks.
@Kathryn I think she is severely depressed. Like when she majorly OD'ed on sleeping pills. She is sort of this half-human, depressed, thing. She isn't really aware of the world around her, yet it's slowly killing her.
ReplyDeleteI think that Montag just never thought about be happy or not. Once he thought about it he realized there is nothing to be happy about.
ReplyDelete@innercircle
ReplyDeleteMontag narrates, “He felt that if his eye itched, she might blink. And if the muscles of his jaws stretched imperceptibly, she would yawn long before he would,” (Bradbury 11). What does he mean by this? How is this significant to his friendship with Clarisse?
I tend to think that Clarisse is far more normal than any of the other people in the society. I think she sees things that others won't be able to see.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteQ: What was the significance of Clarisse asking if Montag is happy?
ReplyDeleteA: I think MOntag needed to ask himself that because, when he did,he realized he wasn't happy. I think he will try to be happy now. Maybe Clarisse will help him find his happiness.
@Class, it is an interesting idea, do you think that the reason that Clarisse is sort of a loner is because she thinks of the world differently than kids her age, or is there something more than that?
ReplyDelete@Ellen - Today she would just be being nice, but in this story (because no one ever spends time outside) she is an outsider, someone different. Guy probably views her as sketchy, but us as readers see her as just a nice person in touch with nature.
ReplyDelete@innercircle The significance to Clarisse asking him if he was happy was that in the society in that day and time is that she may have the perspective that no one is really happy, and she was trying to make him really wonder if he is happy. Eventhough he wants to believe he is happy i think he, if he digs deep, knows that he is really not that happy. He is just going through the motions of life.
ReplyDeleteThe relationship between Montag and Clarrise reminds me of Ralph and Piggy because neither Ralph nor Montag expected to build a friendship with this other person, but when Piggy and Clarrise are gone, it affects both Ralph and Montag.
ReplyDeleteI think it is significant because he is not happy even though he wants to convince himself that he is. It opens up his perspective on how he views his life. He realizes how different his life is from what he thinks his life is like.
ReplyDelete@willie-
ReplyDeleteyou know i have to agree with willie that Clarrise develops the understanding in montag that he really is unhappy, because of the way she portrays society and how reading isn't a bad thing towards free will.
@ class
ReplyDeleteI think this book's feel and society is kind of like the communist times. Everyone lives in fear of each other, anyone could be a spy for the government, like Mrs. Blake ratting out on that one woman for harboring books. You can trust no one. And there is so much death and unhappiness.
@Willie-I think that Clarisse makes him question what is different about her life than his. She makes him realize that something is missing.
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteClarisse is a strange character in this book because even though she seems normal to us, she is completely different from every other person in this society. This makes her very contrasting and a force for change in this book. This means she is normal or sketchy, depending on which frame of reference you look at her from.
What do each of the characters resemble in today's society?
ReplyDelete@Inner Circle, she probably doesn't have a disease, but because she is so different than everyone else, we jump to the conclusion that she does have a disease. Just because she's different, a bit of a rebel, doesn't mean there's something wrong with her.
ReplyDeleteAlso, what do you guys think Montag is hiding up in his ceiling?
ReplyDelete@Ellen- I think she is one of those people who, if she lived in this time, then she would probably be called a nerd- although she just has a different way of seeing the world.
ReplyDelete@Kathryn- She appears to be depressed... She takes sleeping pills. But I wasn't really clear on how she sleeps. Her eyes are always open...?
She isn't stuck in the past she just has the same values as the people in the past.
ReplyDeleteMontag doesn't think like Clarrise. He is focused on his world and his job involved with the government. Clarrise's reaction was pecculiar when she met Montag and realized he was a firefighter. I think Clarrise is one of the characters willing to challenge the system. I'm unsure about Montag willing to follow Clarrise's actions
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteI don't think that the wife is sick, I think that she is so blinded and numbed by society and TV that she doesn't realize what she is doing, and she can't. This just represents how everyone follows what the government tells them to, and she is just like everyone else but Clarisse.
@Class why do you think that Clarisse is so unafraid of the world around her? Firefighters are terrible, kids her age are shooting each other, why is she so calm?
ReplyDelete@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteSince this society is so damaged, it seems to me that being stuck in the past is a good thing. She has better morals than people like Mildred or The Captain.
@arman-
ReplyDeleteso far, montag shows the way the average people are today in society, just stuck in between the fact of what's right and what should be done to make things right. Clarrise shows the freedom found under governmental rule that the system can be challenged by just the smallest of characters. Beaty kind of seems like he may be the form of government containing people.
@Klarissa- I think he is hiding a book or two. And I think it was in the vent, in the wall, not the ceiling? I believe he got the book from the old man he met in the park, which he keeps mentioning although we have not heard the entire story yet.
ReplyDelete@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteI think Bradbury is trying to make Clarisse so normal that he makes her seem extreme in the opposite way (of society; of the norm) just to prove his point. it's like overcompensating for all of the absurdity (of society and of the government) with another kind of absurdity.
@Klarissa--Monsters!!
ReplyDelete@Klarissa I think he is hiding a book.
ReplyDelete@class-Do you think that Clarrise's presence and questions caused Montag to take the book during the fire?
ReplyDelete@class
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why is it the fireman's job to burn books? Why aren't they allowed in this society?
We have to remember that this is not set in our society and time, so the actions of the characters that we find strange may be perfectly normal to them.
ReplyDelete@innercircle i believe that Clarisse is normal...as in the set of the book the time frame her mind is in is different then the time in the book,she is older in her mind then in her body it seems, but i do believe that she is strange. That does not mean she has a mental illness.
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteHer upbringing, especially her uncle has taught her that life isn't really like the pessimistic world around her.
Or monsters. Both work.
ReplyDeleteIf there is a book hidden behind the grill, then this shows how he was already questioning the way government had set society, or at least he had at one time.
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI think that she is so calm because her view on society is different from the rest of the world's. She comes from a background where they challenge the system and they do what makes them happy. (Her uncle)
@Rick
ReplyDeleteI think that in the future the government wants people to get caught up in TV and society. They take away people's books so that that doesn't get in the way.
@Inner Circle- Clarisse is normal it is society that portrays her as “antisocial”. The reason she is ostracized by her peers is because the social norm is for people not to have really deep philosophical conversations. She is a victim of society.
ReplyDeleteDo you think the actual future is going to be anything like the future described in the book?
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI think that Clarisse is unafraid of the world around her because she is not afraid to believe in things that other people are afraid to believe in.
@Julia
ReplyDeleteThis is true, which means we have to think backwards and realize Clarisse is the weird person out of the bunch.
What must have happened to get the government to such a point where books are banned?
ReplyDeleteI like Clarrise's train of thought. She thinks outside the box even when she is aware of the future. She asked Montag if he read any of the books he burned, and Montag answered devensively.
ReplyDelete@Rick I think that the government doesn't want the general public to realize the power that they could have. This is obviously a very very oppressive government. The people in books, however, are rebellious. They do what they want because they can, and to challenge the system. The government doesn't want the people to realize that they too, could challenge the system, so they burn all the evidence of what their society could be.
ReplyDelete@blake
ReplyDeleteBeatty seems to me to actually be the government. If you think about it, he is always saying this is right this isn't, do this and not that
@Julia
ReplyDeleteI think you're right. In this society I think she's more normal then Clarisse is.
@Rick
It's likely that they do so to prevent anyone from knowing more and questioning the government.
@Elly
ReplyDeletePeople value the flow of information available in the world, and will not let the government censor everything away from them.
@inner circle-
ReplyDeletethe sea shell (ear shell) is a radio frequency that is controlled by the government, so basiclly an ear radio.
@ class
ReplyDeleteI was wondering if Captain Beatty was a "closet reader" because the way he could quote and all of the knowledge he demonstrated. Which brings me to the point that I think the government banned books to take away the public's intelligence so that they'd be easier to control.
@Savannah-I agree that Montag acted defensive. Could this show his guilt (if he is guilty) and do you think Clarrise sees that Montag is hiding something?
ReplyDelete@Emma
ReplyDeleteI actually really like the idea that the book is from the old man in the park. Also, yes you're right its not the ceiling, sorry.
@Class, what did you think of the teenage world that Clarisse was describing? The TV class, the murder? How does that make you feel?
ReplyDelete@Ellen- I think that, although Clarisse is aware of the fact that such violence happens, she has never been directly exposed. She stated that several of her friends had been killed, but she also stated that she had no friends, which leads me to believe that she merely was speaking of classmates she was not very close to or fond of. Its like today in society, children are very used to seeing blood and violence on TV and in movies. Something similar may have happened then, only to a more extreme extent, so children are used to blood and violence happening around them in person.
ReplyDelete@michael
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think of the different characters? What do they resemble? What kind of people do they seem like?
What makes the TVs so great in this society?
ReplyDelete@Vanessa - I think you're right about the overwhelming presence of TV, but why? A 4th TV wall?
@kathryn
ReplyDeleteI think that this does show his guilt. She probably knows that he is guilty, and that is why she asks so many questions.
@Joe
ReplyDeleteToo many greedy people who have too much power probably.
@Joe
ReplyDeleteIf someone with a real thirst of power was somehow elected to office, he could potentially team up with other politicians to censor information to the public.
@inner circle- Do you think the script did have a happy ending? If not, how do you think Montag took that?
ReplyDelete@ Joe
ReplyDeleteEnough people must have challenged the government that they felt their power was insecure. Perhaps it was an attempt to create peace by taking away the public's ability to know whether or not they disagree.
@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteYou keep thinking and questioning if Clarisse is normal and what is wrong with Montag's wife, but you have to think in their society's terms. Katie has a great point about society been addicted to tv, so maybe that is why they are so against books.
@Joe she does have the same values as the past, but not only that, the way she looks at things in this book is that she has much deeper thoughts than most people. She also knows more about the past then others. (ex. the firefighters...what their job was compared to what their job is now..)
ReplyDelete@Rick the government can control what goes on TV. The government can't control what's published in books. It's the same way today.
ReplyDelete@Rick
ReplyDeleteWith books censored, TV is the best way to get "information" that is still likely regulated by the government.
@Kathryn:
ReplyDeleteI think that Clarice would help Guy if she knew exactly what he was hiding, that is if he is hiding books.
What about the mechanical Hound? Thoughts?
ReplyDelete@inner circle
ReplyDeleteWhat does the emotion that the two guys that come to pump Mildred's stomach have tell you about the society?
@inner circle-They probably cleaned her blood with the thinking like that of in Renaissance time when they cut a person, thinking that it would clean the blood when it actually hurt the person more.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat is the significance of the number 451?
@ Heidi I agree that the government may have taken away the intelligence of the people. It is easier to control other people when they only know what you want them to know. For example, the hound that they had at the firestation only knew what the people wanted it to know. They mention that they can change the way that the hound speaks and acts.
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteWell, apparently generations have digressed as they go into the future. I think the book is trying to show that even though we are supposed to progress as we go into the future, the exact opposite is happening.
@ Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. Clarisse mentioned how none of the other firemen would have even looked at her, but Montag did. The fact that his mind was open to her "ludicrousness", it shows that he had already been contemplating the governments control and society.
I think eventually Clarisse will fill Montag up with all of these questions about the government, MOntag will get to a point where he challenges the system.
ReplyDeleteDoes Montag really know what happiness is? At the beginning of the story he was content with burning books; it brought him to a normal state of mind at least to him. Montag might not even know what happiness truly is. His wife might be a possible drug addict or did she fake the whole incident? I think if Clarrise hadn't asked Montag these quetions, he might of never thought about a different world where firefighters put out fires and people could be themselves without the government after them.
ReplyDelete@class
ReplyDeleteDo you think the government in Fahrenheit knows how many people have been overdosing on pills? Do you think they care?
@emma-
ReplyDeletethe way the mechanical hound is portrayed in this book, seems like he shows the absolute technology of the future and how it can control us and force us to be the best and obtain the best.
@Vanessa
ReplyDeleteThe number 451 is the temperature at which they burn the books.
@Vanessa
ReplyDelete451 degrees F is the temperature paper burns at.
@inner circle:
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the government makes them use sleeping pills so that they can't think for themselves.
@Emma-I wonder what the Hound could be. At first I thought it was a metaphor for the firs engine, but now I think it could be something specifically designed to be like a storage cabinet with secret info or something.
ReplyDelete@class
ReplyDeleteDo you think that the things that Clarisse has said will make Montag want to change the way the world is or the way he lives his life even?
@Emma that Hound... Thing. Is crreeeeeeeeppppyyy! Ugh I hate it. It obviously knows what Montag is hiding, and it is using it against him. Do you think the Hound is like the equivalent of a Dalmatian? Is that the new firehouse dog?
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteI don't know if any of you have read 1984, but the government seems to be kind of the same in this book to.
@Inner Circle- Any thoughts on the firemen handbook saying that Ben Franklin was the first book burner and founding member of the firemen? Could this be a form of propaganda?
ReplyDelete@Emma
ReplyDeleteThe hound is simply a gruesome way for the author to portray the attitude the firefighters show towards things like life, books, or information.
@Ellen- The government can control what is published, I think they only burn books that were published long ago, because the firemen have rule books. The government wants only their point of view seen.
ReplyDelete@Vanessa--451 is the temperature at which paper will burn
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI agree. i think the hound knows what Montag is hiding.
@class-Maybe the script doesn't have a happy ending and the government recognizes that the society won't have a "happy ending" and they don't want people getting any ideas. Could this be why books are banned?
ReplyDeleteIn this book i think that it shows many timeless factors...such of how people are still addicts to drugs..but it also shows how society advances and the government changes..making our society and their society vastly different and almost non-comparable. Their societies norms are much different than ours today, and our norms are much different than 10 or 20 years ago. We usually don't compare our everyday life to back in the day
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think the dog represents? Do you think it has a special significance?
@ innercircle
ReplyDeleteAt some point I read that the books "didn't agree with each other." which actually says a lot. It says the government wants only one mind set, only one truth or way of being.
@Micheal
ReplyDeleteThat is definitely propaganda for the government to keep people from knowing the truth about history and how life used to be better before they came along. If that information got out, they would be pushed out of power.
@class:
ReplyDeleteI just can't understand how any one would want to burn books and make them illegal. Why would anyone want to stop people from reading? I'm interested to find out why books are illegal.
@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteIs the way these people live really "abnormal"? What defines a normal society?
It was interesting how the government rewrote the past, like they did with the first rules of a firefighter
ReplyDelete@Ellen- TRUE! The dalmatian... I didn't think of that! Also, since Montag does not appear to have any personal relationships with the government (so far) the Hound can represent the government.
ReplyDelete@class - Okay, so we talk about the 'government' having so much control over people's lives and TV. Who is the government? They burn books, but allow kids to kill each other? Who are the leaders that control this world?
ReplyDelete@Michael, the people of this "nation" are obviously very under-educated. They believe that their government is everything. It's like their "God". Therefore, they will believe anything that the government spoon-feeds them, even if it is total crap, such as the Ben Franklin thing. These people obviously put way too much trust in their government.
ReplyDeleteHow did they come to power? Are they happy? Because society isn't.
ReplyDelete@Elly
ReplyDeleteI think that the dog represents how strong the grasp of the government is on the people of the society.
@Eliza
ReplyDeleteI think that a normal society is in the eye of the beholder. Our society today is normal to us, but the society in the book is normal to them.
@Toni-I think books are illegal because of their content. Fantasy stories sometimes cause kids to live with their heads in the clouds. I don't think the government want that. They want to build a society of business, serious people.
ReplyDelete@Kathyrn C.
ReplyDeleteI think Montag could be hiding something. I'm unsure of what, but could it be books maybe or something the government is against? I notice with many people if you ask them a serious question that tries to pour out the truth, they won't look you in the eye, the answer is immediate without thought, and its a huge sign something is not right. The person who is trying to uncover the truth, they are important for social change and challenging the system.
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteWhen Clarisse didn't show up when Montag was walking home, I got a really bad feeling in my gut. Was she put in the asylum or did they kill her or arrest her? Or did something happen? I think if anything happened to her, then I think it will set Montag off.
@Willie:
ReplyDeleteI don't know that I would call it propaganda but it is defiantly an attempt to hide things from the people.
@Arman
ReplyDeleteClarisse is a powerful enough girl in emotion to change Montag from burning books until he dies.
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Beattty may know something that he doesn't want the other firefighters to know or Montag specifically?
@Elly
ReplyDeleteI think the dog represents the people in society because the dog only knows what the creators of it wants it to know. The people only believe what the government wants them to. They do their jobs and then go on with their lives.
@Heidi- That is so true, about the one mindset. I wonder if they wanted from the start for it to be their own mindset, or if all they wanted was one mind set, and they didn't care what, but made it their own out of necessity.
ReplyDelete@Rick
ReplyDeleteProbably some very awful people, unfortunately. It's probably hard to say exactly who these people are, but obviously they are very powerful and we might learn more about them later on in the book.
@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteIs thinking and doing other things than the norm after hearing of the concept just and other form of Challenging the System?
@Emma Woof woof! But in today's society, and apparently this future society, the government has way more control over the TV stations than it does books. Like with Osama bin Laden. The TV stations weren't allowed to broadcast much information about him for quite a few years, because the government didn't want the information to incriminate them or expose too much information. However, numerous books were published on the subject. The government really doesn't control books, because books are set up as an open forum. Television, however, is not that open forum.
ReplyDelete@inner circle
ReplyDeleteWhat do you guys think about the hound?
@class-If the government has gone to such lengths to ban books, do you think they have banned other things?
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhy does Montag take the time to listen to Clarisse? What do you think is so interesting to Montag about Clarisse that make him listen and even agree with what she says?
@Heidi
ReplyDeleteYes, I definitely agree. I thought that was interesting too. It is like in Harrison Burgeron-they want everyone to be the same or uniform.
@Willie
ReplyDeleteSo what do you think will make Montag do so? What did Clarisse say that was deep enough to make Montag want to stop burning books or think about it.
@Class do you think that the Internet exists in this society?
ReplyDelete@Colleen
ReplyDeleteYou're absolutely right. I think that normal depends on who you're asking, so it's really hard to pinpoint what's "abnormal" or not.
@eliza what defines a normal society is the society at which you live in. What you are born into is what you believe is correct. Others may think it strange, but to you it is normal.
ReplyDelete@Kathryn C.:
ReplyDeleteYes they can cause kids to live with there heads in the clouds but couldn't they just ban those books, not all books?
@inner circle:
I would absolutely agree that this book is a prophecy of what our future could be.
@Klarissa
ReplyDeleteMontag is interested in her because he has never heard anyone talk like her or question the government.
@Klarissa- I think Montag stops and listens ot Clarrise because she's different. Human nature is curiosity, and Clarrise just came along with the strangest attitude to Montag and provided a new experience that Montag is drawn to.
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI doubt it because I think it would be a huge ordeal and cause to the government's power over society.
@Toni, but who is to decide what "those" books are?
ReplyDelete@inner circle
ReplyDeleteCan you actually force a society to be one way? It doesn't matter how many people want change, but there will always be someone who will try to keep society to keep things the way they are.
@inner circle-
ReplyDeletedoes it seem like the technology will overcome literature in the Fahrenthheit 451 society? That history will be over written?
@Ellen- I think these people put way to much faith in their government because books are being burned. They don’t know what to believe and what not to believe; there are no other sources of knowledge other than the government so, they have to believe what the government tells them. The government has a monopoly on the flow of knowledge.
ReplyDelete@Ellen--It's never mentioned in the book.
ReplyDelete@Klarissa
ReplyDeleteHe has never seen anyone like her so he wants to figure out what she and everything she does is all about.
@inner circle
ReplyDeleteI think that the point of this book is to make us aware of how things could possibly be in the future. So we think about the direction that our society is going.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI would guess not. They can censor television and provide the information they want the public to have and only that, but it's much harder to censor the internet.
@ class
ReplyDeleteWe are talking about the government banning books. But did they not also ban individualism in a sense? At least that's what I took away from when Montag looked around at his fellow firemen, and saw that they all looked exactly the same.
@Elly
ReplyDeleteI partially agree, but the firemen and government workers are higher in society. Government wants people to be the same, but government is controlling them, and therefore, they are higher is society than the average person. And the firemen are also regarded higher because they "protect" everyone form books, and the people are so used to being controlled, they do not even realize it.
@innercircle
ReplyDeletein some governments today they censor book, internet..everything...this is already happening today in other societies.
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteIf books, which are the biggest source of open and free information, then it's very likely they have done so.
@Arman
Montag already reads lines of books he burns; so why doesn't he take it further and start to cherish all books?
@Toni- The government does not make everyone take sleeping pills. Only Mildred, and I think that the doctor probably works for the government. So the government is, in a way prescribing them. The sleeping pills almost certainly have an effect on who she is. I wonder what she would have been like if she had never taken sleeping pills.
ReplyDelete@Eliza true. If they can't control it, they will probably take it away. Like books.
ReplyDelete@Joe
ReplyDeleteI like what you had to say. I agree that Clarisse is challenging the government. Do you think Montag will turn her in?
@class
ReplyDeleteWhat caused the government to form this ban on books. Often the authority needs a reason or complaint to do something. Could the citizens have brought this on themselves?
@Class:
ReplyDeleteNo one is normal! Everyone has there own little quirks that make them unique. So when trying to be like someone else all you are doing is taking on more quirks.
Clarice, it seems, is one of the only ones that isn't striving to take on other peoples quirks.
@Klarissa
ReplyDeleteNo I think he will become like her and challenge the government with her
@Willie
ReplyDeleteIt might get him fired or in further trouble as well specifically because he works to destroy books.
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat is happening on the top of page 18?
@Ellen- About the internet- probably not. In a place where media is controlled so strictly, I don't think something as open as the internet would be allowed to exist.
ReplyDeleteDo you think we will ever find out who the government really is?
ReplyDelete@Heidi
ReplyDeleteBooks are a HUGE way of expressing yourself, so I think that individualism has disappeared in this society a bit.
@Heidi
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree. By censoring the information that the public receives, they are also keeping them from thinking for themselves, and it takes individual thought to create people who act and look differently.
@Klarissa-
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Montag will turn her in because it seems like he has a secret that challenges the system. Personally, I wouldn't turn someone in if I were doing the same thing.
I think we as readers can become socialogists and bring our thinking into the story to try to think beyond the thoughts of believing actions are bizzare or normal.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteSince Clarisse appears to be challenging the government, do you think Montag will turn her in. Is he too loyal to his government, or is he nice enough to protect her?
@katheryn the government banned books probably because they show thought to an alternate society and may give people thoughts on how things could be...
ReplyDelete@Ellen- I don’t think Internet exists in this society. It was written in the 1950’s, when TV was becoming really popular. The concept of Internet didn’t really exist yet. I think Bradbury focused it more on television and its role in society because television was the up and coming fad at the time. He is warning us about the dangers of TV.
ReplyDelete@Kathryn C.:
ReplyDeleteI think that what you said about the citizens bringing the book ban on themselves is a very good way of looking at the ban.
@Vanessa
ReplyDeleteI think on the top of page 18 Montag is crying and feeling very vulnerable because he has been exposed to this new way of thinking, but the source of this thinking (Clarrise) is gone and now he's like a kid that is left with hardly anything to go on.
@Class, also, he never says "week" he just counts by days. "One two three four five six seven days." (pg 31)Why do you think this is?
ReplyDelete@inner circle
ReplyDeleteI think part of the hound's symbolism is that everything in this society is done quickly and effectively. The hound can kill its target in seconds, with no error. A traditional dog can't do that. The government wants everything done their way, without fail.
@Vanessa- Montag is having a nervous breakdown.... I think he is being overwhelmed by all the new information and ideas his brain is processing, not to mention everything else going on in his life.
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteThe government has probably obscured their true identities to protect themselves from the people who think differently attacking them.
@inner circle-
ReplyDeleteThe government can be repreented by the character Beatty who wants constraint on government, and creates a group of followers of the firman to follow his ways to control free thought.
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteIt's always the victors that write history.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI don't think that time really has an effect on these people.
@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteIs this book necessarily set in America? It really could be in any modern country in the world.
The government is anyone who holds authority in the society. I wouldn't say that the government is this society as a whole, as there are many people who don't control most of what happens to them.
ReplyDelete@inner circle
ReplyDeleteI don't think montag has ever thought about the past. i think he just trust the knowledge that he grew up on.
@Vanessa
ReplyDeleteI agree. I think that the book is trying to warn us or show us what could happen if we don't except and appreciate the way people are. It is trying to tell us that it is important to allow self-expression and, although there may be disagreement, it is still important to except people and their thoughts.
@Class- What do you guys think is going on outside of where ever it is Montag lives? I mean, in his individual country, this is how it is. But what about the other countries around it? Or on the other side of the world? Has Montag's government conquered the entire world?
ReplyDelete@ inner circle:
ReplyDeleteI think that it is strange and messed up that they would have censored the history of firemen.
@Michael That is true about Ray Bradbury warning us about the dangers of TV. But there has to be more than that. I mean, could this whole book really be about the prominence of TV? It technically could, because at the time, TV was the craziest thing ever. It would be like going from no Internet to having Internet. It was just a huge leap for the world to make, and I think that Bradbury wanted it to go slower.
ReplyDeletePlease finish your final thoughts. Shut down your computers...but--DO NOT bring them to the cart until I say. :) Good Job.
ReplyDelete@Blake
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that there are a few characters that know something they don't want anyone else to know. What do you think?
@Willie
ReplyDeleteOr even one that doesn't exist yet. This could be set virtually anywhere, but it seems that the geographical location hasn't been a major factor yet.
@Vanessa i also agree with you. Without people and their free thoughts society and technology would never advance...everything would essentially be at a stand still...frozen in time...
ReplyDelete@emma
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting question. Well, look at life now, America is living very differently than people in China or Africa. I think it's just in Montag's country that this is happening, but other areas have problems too.
@Emma
ReplyDeleteThat still depends on where Montag does live. Does he live in Europe? China? America? Canada?
It was lovely having this discussion with you all today!
ReplyDelete@Emma:
ReplyDeleteI can't imagine that the countries around Montag's would also have books banned because Montag's country's influence would be so great.
Hey
ReplyDelete