@class- So, on page 123, after Montag's foot/leg gets hurt, he goes into a paragraph about how he had to make himself use his hurt leg, and as he used it more and more, the pain got less and less. To me, it seemed like this was a metaphor for how if you do something wrong, like killing someone as Montag did, then as you do it more and more, it gets easier and easier to do. Do you guys agree?
@Reid I think he may have been like the lady earlier in the book and was so tired of living as a bully and hiding that he read that he just wanted to die.
@Reid- I think Beatty wanted to die because he didn't care. Throughout this whole book, it seemed like Beatty's main purpose was to antagonize Montag and make his life awful. Maybe he realized that he had done his job and didn't really care if he died or not. I'm not sure...just a suggestion.
@Reid Maybe, Beatty realized that he was unhappy too. The actions Montag had been taking to challenge the system might have influenced Beatty. I think he realized that society wasn't as perfect as he thought and he really was not happy enough. It's kind of like at the beginning of the book when Montag said that overdosing on drugs was common. Suicide was common. Beatty was ready to leave the awful society. He didn't kill himself but he allowed Montag to kill him.
@Hailey That reminds me of Macbeth, how he started killing, and it was hard, but as he did it more and more it got easier and easier. He also talked about being in a river of blood, how he couldn't get out without killing more.
@Kathryn- I'm not sure if Beatty was willing to die to catch Montag. What is Montag to him? Really, the hound could have just caught him. I feel like Montag was just trash to Beatty and Beatty just wanted to make him feel awful about having books, and he didn't even care if he died or not.
@Kathryn/Katie~ I don't think it just "goes away". I think it's always there, you just stop noticing it after awhile. (which could also be a metaphor...)
@Casey That's a good thought. I think that Montag thought/ knew he was going out on a limb when he told Mildred, but I guess he thought she was changing like him? Or that's what he hoped
@Casey I don't think Mildred was the one that turned in Montag. But since Montag ended up telling Mildred about the books, he must have trusted her at least a little bit.
@Reid I think he was just tired of life. Living in such a controlled society can wear on you. He just needed a way out of life and Montag gave him that out.
@Casey--I don't think that Mildred would have kept the secret. I always had a suspicion about her. She doesn't care about her husband or his feelings, she only cares about herself and her social life. In my opinion, when Montag embarrassed her in front of her friends, she was set off and it was like she wanted revenge.
@Hailey I think you're right. However, it might not necesarily mean that killing gets easier. I think it means that at first, breaking the law and challenging the government is difficult. It's hard to challenge something you've lived with for a long time. As you get into it, though, it gets easier and you get more motivated for your cause. I think the hurt leg was a metaphor for the slow start to Montag's rebellion but it slowly got stronger and Montag grew more aware and more aggressive.
I wonder what was going on in Beatty's head. Did he really want to leave society? He seemed so calm and collected on the outside. Do you think that there are many people who don't like the way society works?
Now that Beatty is dead, do you think that he was purposely trying to spite Montag in particular by making a big deal about it, or was he just dedicated to his job?
@Casey: I don't honestly thing Montag expected to get away with hiding the books. I think he expected to get caught. On page 114, he seemed kind of shocked at Beatty, how mean he was, but not all that suprised at what house it was.
@Hailey That makes a lot of sense. I can see how Beatty was that antagonist to push the story along its track. And I think Bradbury just needed to get rid of Captain Beatty like he did Clarisse.
@Casey- I had no doubt throughout the whole book that Mildred would NOT keep the secret. Although she may have seemed trustworthy for a while, she was scared, and fear can do stuff to people. I think she cracked because her friends influenced her by the way they reacted and I think she finally got her act together and realized what mattered more to her....Montag, her "family", or her. She chose herself, and I knew she would the entire book.
@Casey I think that Beatty was frustrated by the lack of control that he had. There are probably people that aren't happy with the society; but there are also a lot of people that don't know anything different, so they wouldn't be able to notice how messed up things are.
@Casey~ I think that there are definitely others besides Beatty who think society is "wrong", but the masses of people don't. That's the problem- that there are more followers than leaders.
@Class What are your thoughts on Beatty being a closet reader? After all he referenced the bible and a Greek mythological story. He also quoted a lot of different people from history.
@Emma I have a suspicion about Beatty. I feel like he suspected Montag all along and was purposely trying to take him down. AS we said last time, Beatty is a bully. I don't think he was as dedicated to his job as he was finding the weak links and breaking them.
@Julia S.- In the book, it actually said that Beatty would have come even if Mildred hadn't turned in the alarm....Mildred's friend had alarmed in earlier, but Beatty had ignored it. It still doesn't hide the fact that Mildred betrayed her husband.
@Julia I don't think that Mildred is the one that sounded the alarm because in the book it says that she was moving the books inside from the garden. I think that the hound discovered it.
I think the teen driving scene really illustrated how this society only wants to have fun. They have no regard for their future. It's scary, especially because they have no parental guidance. -Rick Z
I think Beatty, realizes he can't live in a society where things are under a different control. Maybe the citizens didn't want their lives revolving around technology. Could it be a possibility they are all brainwashed?
@Class What is the significance of Montag's hands? He keeps repeating that they he is not controlling them and he is always so surprised when they do something like fire the flame thrower.
@Hailey Beatty was the only one Montag killed. I don't think the metaphor was necesarily about the killing because he hasn't even realized that it gets easier. He has only murdered one person.
@Michael Maybe Beatty wanted to die because he knew that he was also guilty of reading. He could have been unhappy and couldn't take the pressure anymore.
@ Hailey I think we all saw it coming. We all knew that she was more concerned about her programs than her own family. It became obvious when she was trying to cover up for Montag. She was only trying not to get arrested. She cared too much about her friends.
@Michael: I think Beatty is a hypocrite. He says books are terrible, but I suspect by all his knowlege he was reading. I agree with Heidi that he was an opressed intellectual.
@Rick~ I agree! I think that there are no real thoughts of the future or what you could become- it's just what's fun now, what's good now, what you can do now. There is an appalling shortsightedness to all of it.
@Drew and Emma- I agree. I feel like in this chapter, I could see Beatty as a bully more than ever. To me, it seemed like he didn't even really care about his job. Burning books was his second priority. Making the people who had them feel like crap was his number one priority, like we saw with Montag.
@Drew what you said about breaking the weak links, I saw a TV show once where someone was murdering people for being "weak" or dealing with problems because his own brother had commited suicide. Do you think Beatty could have lost someone very close to him?
@Casey as we talked about earlier in the book we had concluded that Mildred was not trust worthy because her and Montag didn't even talk or they didn't even know each other, and how can you trust someone that you don't even know. From the beginning Mildred never liked the idea of books in the house. In the end Mildred only cared about herself. Earlier in the book I think that it foreshadowed how she only cared about herself, and what might happen because of that
@Casey- I think one could certainly grow tired of living in such a society. Beatty had seen so many books burned, so many houses, so many people taken away. For some people, that might have made them more compassionate and empathetic, such as Montag. But for others, it would just harden them to humanity. To me it kind of appeared that he was one of those who was hardened, but understood that he was hardened. When he saw he was hardened, it may have gone against his morals or his image of himself. That could make anybody unhappy- even enough to die.
@Drew- Okay, I agree. For some reason, though, it felt to me as if it was about killing. That was just the context I saw it in. But you could be right, too. Like we said, books are open to more than one interpretation.
@Julia I think that Montag had such an adrenaline rush that he wasn't even thinking about what he was doing anymore. His hands were taking control and we wasn't necessarily thinking about what was going on.
@ Julia I think that the hands symbolize the rebellion. It's getting to be uncontrollable as if they had minds of they're own. In Macbeth, Macbeth was halucinating in the scene with the dagger, and he had the hand metaphor as well.
@Julia I think the significance of Montag's hands is that it's not necesarily Montag who is controlling this fight and rebellion inside him. Montag has been influenced by so many people (Clarisse, Faber, old woman at the house, etc.). I believe that the significance of his hands is that so many ideas and people are behind his actions. It's not just him controlling his actions.
I think it's very interesting that Montag feels he doesn't have control of his hands. Twice now, he's said his hands began to commit an act, and he felt he had no control over what was happening. (Tearing pages out of books and when he brutally murdered Beatty with a flame thrower.)
@Vanessa- I agree wth you that Montag had an adrenaline rush. But I think that instead of it being exciting, it was more that Montag's subconscious knew what he needed to do, and took over.
@Kathryn~I don't know if he's looking for weakness, persay, but more like he's looking for people who did the same thing he did (book reading wise). I think he's trying to justify his actions through continuing to take his job so seriously.
@Ellen--I feel like her friends are just as selfish as she is. Mildred doesn't care about her husband or having a family. Her friends obviously don't either. These people aren't that old, so it seems like she wants a husband just to have one. If my husband died in war, I would be devastated. I wouldn't run off and get another one as soon as possible.
Also, Milly considers Mrs. Phelps and Mrs. Bowles "friends", though she doesn't even know about their children? People don't seem to connect much in this society. At least not on a personal level.
@Emma and Casey- I agree with Emma about how you might get tired of living in a society like that. I actually think that maybe Mrs. Phelps started crying because of that. I don't think she feels the same way that Montag does about books, but I think maybe she was so dang tired of living in a world like this where people have dozens of abortions and three husbands, and no love that maybe she just broke down. But at the same time, I think she hardened up after she left and realized that this was the way it was gonna be.
@Ellen I think that Mildred's friends really symbolize society. It's all about the pursuit of pleasure and not about love or emotion really. They just throw their kids in the parlor and never talk to them. I believe that all of Mildred's friends (in contrast to the poem Montag read) show how much society has changed.
If that is the case...what was Bradbury saying about women? Are we easily manipulated? Are we typically following along with what people expect of us? Are we happy when we are being taken care of? Something to think about.
@Casey I agree with you. I think the other firemen are puzzled and have no idea what is going on. Beatty is the only one who knows about what is going on, and that is also because he reads. All the rest of the firemen follow the government- the don't know better.
I really agree that Beatty was just testing Montag's breaking point. He just wanted to push him to the edge and just seem him collapse, however I don't think the incident went the way Beatty planned. He didn't kill the other firemen because they were just innocent bystanders with no piece in the conflict between Beatty and Montag. He just knocked them out so he could get away.
@Kathryn--It doesn't surprise me. In their society, I feel like they don't care about feelings. It is like when Montag said that he wouldn't cry if Mildred died.
@Vanessa I think that Killing Beatty was inevitable. It had to be Montag. This action showed how far Montag was "gone" and what lengths he would go to to defend what he thought.
@Rick I think when someone lives in a monotonousness society then it would only feel natural to try and have because it is like they are living in a black and white picture and everyone wants to add some color to there life, but I also think that most people are scared to kind of rebel because of what the consequence might be from the government.
@Rick~ I think it's really interesting that he often uses his hands without "realizing" it. He tends to do things that are so heinously wrong (at least in this society) such as stealing books and murder, and say that he didn't know what his hands were doing to maybe justify his actions.
@Kathryn I think it's really sad how numb people's emotions are. I would think that Montag and Mildred's book reading time would have brought them closer, but they ended up still being very distant.
@Kathryn- I don't think that Millie was only with Montag to pay the bills. I think it was more like she was in love with the idea of love- loving Montag, and then loving her parlor family.
@Ellen- No, they don't connect as friends. I think Mildred considers them friends because "friends" in this society consist of people who are willing to take time out of their 'busy' schedules (you know, they have to drive the kids EVERYWHERE and make food and all of that :)) to watch the parlor walls. Friends are not friends like we know them today, but more like people who someone can relate to vaguely. It doesn't even have to be a lot of relating, as we see in Mildred when she doesn't even know her friends very well. They just have to have a tiny bit in common.
@Kathryn I agree maybe he was an oppressed intellectual. I don’t think he wanted to have to read books in secret anymore. He couldn’t bear suffering through another day were he had to read in secret and live in fear that he would, one day, be discovered and arrested.
@Kathryn I think Montag was right. Mildred probably will forget by morning. There is no connection or emotion anymore. For example, Mildred's friends have gone through 3 marriages! People only care about themselves and their pleasures in life. Mildred will probably move on and marry someone else without even shedding a tear.
@Katie~ Interesting point with the family::friends::entertainment thing. I agree with the fact that people are only really there for other people's enjoyment, and not necessarily living for themselves-especially people like Millie and her friends.
@Ellen & class The women talk about not liking or caring about their kids; "They'd just as soon kick me as kiss me. Thank God, I can kick back!" They try to push off their problems onto everyone else, so they can be ok to sit in their parlor and watch the "family". So children just aren't something they want.(and that's likely why the kids that are born drive around at night, speeding, trying to hit pedestrians. They have no one who cares about looking after them.)
@Elli- I don't think his 'hands' are justifying his acts. I don't even think those are his excuse. I think he sincerely is just so numbed by the society that when his mind gets a new plan to do something so against the government and society rules, then his hands and body can't follow yet. I think that he's just all messed up because he's never done anything like this yet.
Isn't there a large part of the population that easily accepts what is given to them...who would never really question what society expects of them? Maybe the women were used to represent a larger part of the population.
@Colleen, yes, but on the other hand, do you think that Mildred and Montag would love each other in today's society? I sort of doubt it. I think that Mildred doesn't want a husband or a family. And she completely has that right. I think she got married more for something to do than because it actually meant something. So while it's still *wrong*, I can see why she wouldn't care if her husband died. I think it's the same way with the other women. They don't want to be married, or have a family, but they do/are, therefore, they don't care. They would be fine if their loved ones died as long as they have their TVs. Again, it's not right, but it makes complete sense.
@emma That's an interesting thought. Maybe Millie just married because of hormones. Maybe she just wanted experiences, and so she could tell her friends she was married. For status.
With that husband going to war, the wives were told the husband will be back in 48 hours or a week. War is never like that. It never goes that way. Look at the Civil War each side thought the war would last a couple months, but it lasted five, bloody years. In WWI Germany thought they would win in weeks, the war lead onto four, disgusting years. It just never goes as planned.
@Inner Circle I think it just happened on accident that the women are the only characters portrayed as dumb. We just don't know the other men that well- like the other firemen- and I don't think a woman is going to be a fire chief.
@mmoritz I think that women are easily manipulated because they don't seem to smart and when a society runs in this way I think that it is normal for women to manipulated because in our day and age women used to be very easy to manipulate because that's how society expected them to be, they expected them to be the women of the house and the man should wear the pants in the house. I think that this is how most of their society runs.
@class How do you think the war will affect the story. It keeps coming up in multiple conversations, but so far it hasn't played a major role in the plot.
@mmoritz I think that we do tend to follow what people expect of us. If everyone is doing something, then we do the same thing. A lot of us don't like to stand out of the ordinary. For example, If I were to go through a drive through and there is a certain way to go, then I wouldn't drive through the other way, would I? I would follow the other cars.
@Rick--do some parents to this today? My children were in daycare all day long until they went to Kindergarten. Now they are in school all day long with other teachers teaching them. How am I that much different than the women in the book?
@Moritz- I don't know what to think about the women in this book. They are all such fake personalities, and no one I would EVER want to hang out with. Is that how Bradbury saw women? Is that how women were seen as during that time period? Is that how he think women would be treated now? I'm not sure if we'll ever know...he might have left that open to interpretation as part of the story.
@Hailey~ I understand that, but I think he's saying that he doesn't really know what he's doing and he says that his hands are acting of their own accord, which I think is implying that he doesn't really know what they're doing.
@Alexis I disagree. I don't think that's how society is supposed to be. Looking at the evidence, there isn't anything that suggests that a women was supposed to run the house. If you look at other parts of the house, the door has a robot doorbell. Couldn't this be used elsewhere?
The women were complete psychos. They just payed attention to their walls and nothing else. They don't care about their lives, they just care about society and how it benefits them. Or what happens in their TV shows. Women just don't have good statuses. They were almost tools on a chessboard.
@class- Joe just said something about how when Mildred took too many sleeping pills, they sent over a mechanic rather than a doctor. This just made me think this: I think that symbolizes that people are becoming more like machines, programmed to do what the government wants, not having a mind of their own. What do you guys think?
@ Class Do we even know what the war is about? @ Kathryn Maybe the war will bring books back. It should be and independent decision to whether you choose to read or not.
@ Kathryn I think the war is supposed to be symbolic. I don't think it will ever become a major part of the story. I think it's meant to symbolize that not everything is perfect in the world. That the society is fighting a new possibility.
@Kathryn I think the war will make it so that the Wives back at home will have to "step up to the plate" they will not have husbands to take care of them any more.
What do you think about the war going on? It seems, (judging from the low key radio announcement), that it's just another news story. If it is an atomic war (pg73), why isn't this a big deal?
About the the population- I think that the people do not see the flaws in their society because they do not WANT to see the flaws in their society. They want their society to be perfect, so they tell themselves that it is. Then along comes the realists, who see the problems and acknowledge them. These are the people like Clarisse. And then there's Faber, who I think sees the problems, but is too afraid to do something about it.
@Moritz: You know your children's names and you obviously care about them, where the women in the book barely know their names and so obviously don't care.
@mmoritz I think that in every society there are a large amount of conformist. I think that what society expects of us is what we give the society. Being "normal" in terms of how the society defines normal is what a large amount of what the population wants, but there is also the small amount of the society that doesn't conform as shown by Clarisse
@Moritz I think that most of society does just accept what is given to them.I think that in this society that Bradbury had created, most people's lives were centered around themselves. They didn't care about society's thoughts, they cared about how happy they were themselves. I believe that life for these people was just about fun and how great they could make their own life.
@Taylor Thinking that women should "step up", so far, they seem to be doing pretty well on their own. I mean, look and Millie's friends, they talk about their husbands as just being there, but not really in their lives.
@Moritz- You're different because you take time in your kids lives to enrich them in different ways than teachers can. These women don't at all. You care about your children, they don't.
People always die in war it is just hard to know the people who do a small majority of the soldiers die so the chance of knowing some one in such a large population who dies in a battle is a very slim chance.
@Kathryn I think war will be a big part of the plot. Faber foreshadows “Patience, Montag. Let the war turn off the ‘families’,” (p87). It maybe the thing that wipes out this society. If the war wipes out this society then, they will have a clean slate and be able to rebuild a society were books aren’t burned.
@Moritz That happens to alot of working parents, but it's those who take time out of their schedules to spend time with their children that are the great parents. Kids need to know they're noticed ans loved and they should come before work does, especially at home.
@class We see the society in the book as so insane and awful but aren't there a lot of similarities between that and our current world today? We see this society as scary and intimidating, but aren't we similar enough to start heading in that direction?
@mmoritz: When your children come home from daycare and school, you ask them how their day went, maybe give them a snack, and always tuck them in at night with a goodnight kiss. These women don't give their kids the love that parents today hopefully do. My parents truly care about how my life is going, and the direction it is going.
@ mmoritz Well, the one women talks about having a purposeful Cesaerian section, and that shows that she didn't really want to put in the effort to have her children. Many people do that of course, and ther is nothing wrong with that. But the way she talks about her children makes it sound like she doesn't care. She said that they were her debt to society or something.
@Emma- I agree. I think that society in this book is not naive, but rather, afraid, to do anything about the way they are treated or the way they have been raised by society. I think this is similar to society today, actually. We in society, say we don't like something but we don't do much about it. Granted, there are people who do something about it, which is better than this society, but still....we're a long way from being perfect.
@ Moritz With what you just said, it think it is still different in the book. The women said they disliked the kids and never see them or the kids just watch TV. You may not spend a lot of time with your kids, but when you do have time you cherish it. Here is the question that differs you from the moms in the book.
@Alexis It's essential to be close to your family. A person learns the basics of life at home, and if they have a bad experience, then they won't want to have a home of their own. @Elli That's a great experience, because one of the best things about being parents is experiencing the little things in their child's life, like losing a first tooth or helping them take their first step.
@Michael I think you're right. The war will most likely play a huge part in the rebellion. I predict that with Montag's started rebellion and the war, society will finally start to change.
Colleen and I were just talking, and we think the thing that drives these somewhat "un-loved" children is guilt. The guilt of "ruining their parent's lives" or their parents not wanting them would drive these kids to extremes, and that explains so much about the kids in Fahrenheit. They aren't loved or wanted, and they are trying to fill that hole.
@katheryn C it is no different if a nanny raises the child they still learn and in this society everyone's life is bad so the outcome of the child is not different,
@Moritz: I agree with how some parents only see their children when driving them to activities, but it's not always the parents' fault. I sign myself up for everything. My parents just pay. :)
@Casey--so true. I have friends who had c-sections on purpose because they didn't want to go through the pain of delivery and they didn't want their hips to spread. Ridiculous.
@Alexis--I think it is important to remain close to your family because they will be there the rest of your life. You can't just get rid of them. Friends can leave. If you build up a good relationship with your loved ones, then you will be happy the rest of your life. If you hate them all, you are stuck with them and stuck with a crappy outlook on life.
@Alexis~ what do you mean? Like it's a good thing when you participate in your child's life? (not meaning to like, diss my parents or anything. They did a pretty good job, considering). Plus they moved when they realized that they wanted to do that.
My parents aren't too good with the life lesson speeches or the whole good advice thing, but I know that they're hearts are in the right place. They truly care about me, but I can't say the same for te children in this book. Clarrisse had what each child should have, but it makes me upset that these children are growing up without a helping hand putting them in the right direction.
@Ellen I don't think the children should feel guilty for "ruining their parent's lives" because their parents chose to have a family. Also, parents teach their children nearly everything, and therefore kids learn habits from their parents.
@ Class This is exactly what I meant when I said I see this as an awareness. Parents are so busy, children don't know what love and compassion is. When they mature and become adults on their own, the don't know how to find love or know how to love. It's because they were raised this way.
@Moritz: What we will do for looks. I think that is the main thing that controls us today (Girls at least). Just like electronics control the women in Farenheit 451.
@Casey That's almost the opposite of my family. We are always getting life lessons form my dad, even while we're watching Star Trek, but I've learned over time that that is how my dad shows that he loves me and is worrying for me and my future.
@Drew- that's basically what I said. I think that our society is a LOT like this society. Granted, our flaws our hidden by the amazing things we have in this world, but we have the same flaws. We say that the people in this society are stupid to not do anything and are just hiding, but we do the exact same thing. I know that when I see poverty, hunger, war or anything that makes me sad on tv, I turn it off. I hide. I always think that if I don't help, then there are 10 more people in place of me that will put my thoughts into actions. So, I think we need to NOT blame the other people in society in this book. They are hiding just like I am, and I'm assuming just like most of you do.
@ class We keep talking about how it's important to stay close to your loved ones, and I agree, but do you think that closeness even exists in this book? Montag and Mildred didn't even remember when they first met!
@Julia the dads are detached too. The thing is, though, historically, in a situation with a mom and a dad, dads are usually less involved. When people are scared, they call for their moms. When I'm sick, it's my mom who's there. It's always more shocking to see moms who don't care. It's unfortunately more normal to see a dad who doesn't care.
@Drew- I agree with you. In our society today, there are many issues we see that the government would be able to solve. But we feel powerless to make that happen. The government is supposed to be by the people, for the people. I know I feel like if I wrote a letter to the president, it would never reach him. Maybe the people of this society feel the same way.
@Reid and Rick That is exactly what I am talking about. If they just don't live at home then its not only the moms neglecting the kids! this is a two-person job- it is not only the mother's responsibility to raise a child so in this book it is not only the moms' faults that the kids are messed up!
@Kathryn--I think what Ellen was saying is that some of these kids weren't wanted. I was an accident, but my parents were happy to have me. These parents still don't want their kids. If I were in their situation, I would feel guilty that I am not wanted, and I made my parents upset.
@inner circle- You guys are assuming a LOT. You guys are saying that a ton of this stuff is the 'norm', yet the book hasn't said that, and we haven't even seen any other people other than the main characters. How do we know what the norm is just because of three characters?? That may be a billionth of the population, but I'm not sure, because I'm not assuming the population. The assumptions you are making may really affect the story. I just think we should be careful of that.
@Kathryn C Not always. In a lot of situations, parents don't plan to have a family. It just happens. And those are the times when parents end up not wanting their children. Not all families are planned, and not all families are families.
@hailey I think that people in our society realize the problem that we face, but either don't know how to fix them, will fix the problems incorrectly(resulting in more problems), or are just too lazy to do anything,
@Hailey That is exactly was I mean. Just like in the society in the book, we aren't taking the initiative and taking part in our society. We act just like the people in the book. There society is slightly more extreme than ours but if we are so similar to them, our society could easily get to that place.
@ Class The world is over populated. In 1804 there was 1 billion people.In 2054, there is supposed to be 9 billion; over 250 years the population increases by 8 billion. It just represents the fact that what Heidi said was the ugly truth.
@ Julia I agree!. My parents talk about this all the time. No matter how many kids you have it takes two people to raise a responsible and aware child. My dad's co- worker is divorced, and ever since then she has never been more involved with her kids.
Montag just said goodbye to Faber. So you think that Faber will go just like Clarrise? Was he just another person that influenced MOntag's perspectiveon the world around him?
@Katie what military? We're not even sure that there is a standing army. We know that there is a war and men fighting, but that doesn't mean there is a military willing to defend the people.
It's interesting that Montag thought he could make a final speech before he gets caught by the hound, and that 10-30 MILLION people would witness it on live TV. (pg135). Especially early in the morning.
@Hailey I like that thought, how each person has their own happiness. I think it also depends on what they are exposed to, and how well they handle change. The world changes everyday, and happiness can only come when someone is not focusing on the negative.
@Hailey and Kathryn I think Hailey makes a great point when it comes to true happiness. Anyone can convince themselves that they are happy. Montag did at the beginning of the book. If one does not really think about it, they can easily believe that they are truly happy.
money buying happiness is very true. If you have all the money in the world you can do what you want and make your own reality. Poor people are always stresses about paying there bills and have alot of problems in their life.
After reading these pages in Fahrenheit 451, I was very surprised by what happened. I think that the reason Beatty wanted to die is because he was simply tired of living. He may have recognized that the rest of the firemen, and society could easily continue without him. Beatty may have realized that all he truly did in life was made others such as Montag unhappy. I think that Montag trusted Mildred with his secret at the beginning, otherwise he wouldn't have told her about the books. I think his trust in Mildred deteriorated as he began to question their relationship. Mildred may not have planned on telling Beatty about the books at first, but once Montag upsetted her friends, Mrs. Phelps and Mrs. Bowles, Mildred may have felt that she needed to do something. Mildred definitely showed that she cared much more about her "friends" and technology than her husband. Maybe Montag blamed his hands for grabbing the flamethrower and taking the books because he believed that it really wasn't him. Montag felt that he would never do anything to harm another person, so blaming his hands on the action may have made him feel less guilt. Also, when he took the books, he blamed his hands. He may have felt less guilty by saying that his hands were doing it, not him. From Beatty's knowledge of all of the quotes, I think that Beatty must have read many, many more books than he admitted to. It makes me wonder why Beatty wasn't ever caught. It seems like war is mentioned in the story to demonstrate how powerful the society is and how the citizens have no say in what the government does. It also seems like the citizens, especially Montag, don't care what is happening with the war, but are more invested in their own personal problems. It is interesting that Radbury made women seem like weak and unintelligent beings with little care for their families. Maybe he was trying to imply that in the future, we may become so invested in tecnology, that we wont spend time with our families. He may have also been predicting that the human race will become less interested in education as technology advances. I think that Faber may be tracked down and killed, but he also is very intelligent and wise, and may be capable of avoiding being caught. If tecnology continues to advance, I think that people will simply become less inteligent, less caring of others, and less invested in society. I think that part of Ray Bradbury's purpose in writing Fahrenheit 451 was to illustrate the dangers that tecnology presents.
I think that Beaty was "a closet reader." He seems to know way to many quote from so many books. Just getting curious and reading one book could not have given him all of those quotes from his "dream." Also, why does Beaty keep putting Montag on the spot so many times? What does he expect to get out the conversation? With Mildred, why would she turn in her husband. He trusted her to keep his secret until he had gone through all of his books. Yet she still called the police on him. Although it couldn't have helped when Montag went off on her friends. Why would he bring out a book of poetry? Did he not expect Mildred's friends to report him? What was going through his mind? I think that in that society everyone is worried about how they look and how many walls of television they have, that they don't consider what truly matters. When Mildred left in the taxi before Montag burned the house I kind of feel like that was closure for Montag. That even though it wasn't official, it was a form of divorce. I am curious to see what happens to Faber and Mildred. If Mildred will be arrested for hiding the books at first, or if she will be left alone because she turned Montag in. I really hope that nothing happens to Faber, I like his character. Finally, I think that we may just be over thinking Montag saying that after a while his leg stopped hurting. His adrenaline could simply have taken over. I know that when I cut my feet open while playing out front with my neighbors I don't feel anything until the game has stopped or calmed down. A persons' adrenaline can make people to stop feeling pain and do amazing things.
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhy Do you think Beatty wanted to die?
Either Beatty agreed with Montag about books, or he was willing to die to catch montag
ReplyDelete@Reid:
ReplyDeleteI think he was just tired of the world. He did seem kind of depressed. Plus, I also believe that he is (was) insane.
@class- So, on page 123, after Montag's foot/leg gets hurt, he goes into a paragraph about how he had to make himself use his hurt leg, and as he used it more and more, the pain got less and less. To me, it seemed like this was a metaphor for how if you do something wrong, like killing someone as Montag did, then as you do it more and more, it gets easier and easier to do. Do you guys agree?
ReplyDelete@Reid
ReplyDeleteI think he may have been like the lady earlier in the book and was so tired of living as a bully and hiding that he read that he just wanted to die.
@Kathryn:
ReplyDeleteWas Montag really escaping though? Beatty would have known the hound was coming, so he didn't need to be caught.
@Reid- I think Beatty wanted to die because he didn't care. Throughout this whole book, it seemed like Beatty's main purpose was to antagonize Montag and make his life awful. Maybe he realized that he had done his job and didn't really care if he died or not. I'm not sure...just a suggestion.
ReplyDelete@Reid
ReplyDeleteMaybe, Beatty realized that he was unhappy too. The actions Montag had been taking to challenge the system might have influenced Beatty. I think he realized that society wasn't as perfect as he thought and he really was not happy enough. It's kind of like at the beginning of the book when Montag said that overdosing on drugs was common. Suicide was common. Beatty was ready to leave the awful society. He didn't kill himself but he allowed Montag to kill him.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteThat reminds me of Macbeth, how he started killing, and it was hard, but as he did it more and more it got easier and easier. He also talked about being in a river of blood, how he couldn't get out without killing more.
At the last Fishbowl, we talked about trust. I'm wondering if Montag ever really thought that Mildred would keep the book secret.
ReplyDelete@Hailey--I completely agree. It is kind of like a drug effect. For certain things, the more you do it, the more you build up a tolerance for it.
ReplyDelete@Hailey~ I agree. I think that he is using this as a metaphor for death and how is gets more numb as you do it more and more.
ReplyDelete@Hailey:
ReplyDeleteI thought that the pain got worse and worse and then just went away. Is there symbolism in that, too?
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI totally agree. It reminds me of Macbeth and how his murders seemed to get easier for him to either plan or to commit himself.
@Kathryn- I'm not sure if Beatty was willing to die to catch Montag. What is Montag to him? Really, the hound could have just caught him. I feel like Montag was just trash to Beatty and Beatty just wanted to make him feel awful about having books, and he didn't even care if he died or not.
ReplyDelete@Reid I don't think he *wanted* to die, but he certainly didn't put up much of a fight to live, did he?
ReplyDelete@Kathryn/Katie~ I don't think it just "goes away". I think it's always there, you just stop noticing it after awhile. (which could also be a metaphor...)
ReplyDelete@Casey
ReplyDeleteThat's a good thought. I think that Montag thought/ knew he was going out on a limb when he told Mildred, but I guess he thought she was changing like him? Or that's what he hoped
@Casey
ReplyDeleteI don't think Mildred was the one that turned in Montag. But since Montag ended up telling Mildred about the books, he must have trusted her at least a little bit.
@Reid I think he was just tired of life. Living in such a controlled society can wear on you. He just needed a way out of life and Montag gave him that out.
ReplyDelete@Kathryn- No, actually, it says the pain was at first like spikes, then darning needles, then safety pins, so the pain is JUST getting less and less.
ReplyDelete@Casey--I don't think that Mildred would have kept the secret. I always had a suspicion about her. She doesn't care about her husband or his feelings, she only cares about herself and her social life. In my opinion, when Montag embarrassed her in front of her friends, she was set off and it was like she wanted revenge.
ReplyDelete@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI think you're right. However, it might not necesarily mean that killing gets easier. I think it means that at first, breaking the law and challenging the government is difficult. It's hard to challenge something you've lived with for a long time. As you get into it, though, it gets easier and you get more motivated for your cause. I think the hurt leg was a metaphor for the slow start to Montag's rebellion but it slowly got stronger and Montag grew more aware and more aggressive.
I wonder what was going on in Beatty's head. Did he really want to leave society? He seemed so calm and collected on the outside. Do you think that there are many people who don't like the way society works?
ReplyDeleteHow badly was Montag hurt? It sounds like his leg was cut nearly off, but no one would be able to walk period if that were the case.
ReplyDeleteNow that Beatty is dead, do you think that he was purposely trying to spite Montag in particular by making a big deal about it, or was he just dedicated to his job?
ReplyDelete@class
ReplyDeleteI think that Mildred may have turned in the alarm, but even if she didn't Beatty would have come to the house anyway.
@Casey:
ReplyDeleteI don't honestly thing Montag expected to get away with hiding the books. I think he expected to get caught. On page 114, he seemed kind of shocked at Beatty, how mean he was, but not all that suprised at what house it was.
@Casey
ReplyDeleteHow old is Beatty? Maybe he has seen the world change and just got fed up with it and couldn't live anymore.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteThat makes a lot of sense. I can see how Beatty was that antagonist to push the story along its track. And I think Bradbury just needed to get rid of Captain Beatty like he did Clarisse.
@Casey- I had no doubt throughout the whole book that Mildred would NOT keep the secret. Although she may have seemed trustworthy for a while, she was scared, and fear can do stuff to people. I think she cracked because her friends influenced her by the way they reacted and I think she finally got her act together and realized what mattered more to her....Montag, her "family", or her. She chose herself, and I knew she would the entire book.
ReplyDelete@Drew
ReplyDeleteI deffinitely think you're right about the metaphor. I think it also represents that you should keep trying even if you face challenges.
@Casey
ReplyDeleteI think that Beatty was frustrated by the lack of control that he had. There are probably people that aren't happy with the society; but there are also a lot of people that don't know anything different, so they wouldn't be able to notice how messed up things are.
@Drew- I agree, but I think that in this context, the metaphor was about killing. But, at the same time, I can see your metaphor, too.
ReplyDelete@Casey~ I think that there are definitely others besides Beatty who think society is "wrong", but the masses of people don't. That's the problem- that there are more followers than leaders.
ReplyDelete@Class What are your thoughts on Beatty being a closet reader? After all he referenced the bible and a Greek mythological story. He also quoted a lot of different people from history.
ReplyDelete@Hailey
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of Millie's friends, why did Mrs Phelps start crying?
@Class:
ReplyDeleteHas your opinion of Beatty changed over the last reading? I know we discuissed him being a bully and we weren't sure, but what about now?
@Emma
ReplyDeleteI have a suspicion about Beatty. I feel like he suspected Montag all along and was purposely trying to take him down. AS we said last time, Beatty is a bully. I don't think he was as dedicated to his job as he was finding the weak links and breaking them.
@Julia S.- In the book, it actually said that Beatty would have come even if Mildred hadn't turned in the alarm....Mildred's friend had alarmed in earlier, but Beatty had ignored it. It still doesn't hide the fact that Mildred betrayed her husband.
ReplyDelete@Julia
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Mildred is the one that sounded the alarm because in the book it says that she was moving the books inside from the garden. I think that the hound discovered it.
I think the teen driving scene really illustrated how this society only wants to have fun. They have no regard for their future. It's scary, especially because they have no parental guidance.
ReplyDelete-Rick Z
I think Beatty, realizes he can't live in a society where things are under a different control. Maybe the citizens didn't want their lives revolving around technology. Could it be a possibility they are all brainwashed?
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat is the significance of Montag's hands? He keeps repeating that they he is not controlling them and he is always so surprised when they do something like fire the flame thrower.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteBeatty was the only one Montag killed. I don't think the metaphor was necesarily about the killing because he hasn't even realized that it gets easier. He has only murdered one person.
@Michael
ReplyDeleteMaybe Beatty wanted to die because he knew that he was also guilty of reading. He could have been unhappy and couldn't take the pressure anymore.
@ Hailey
ReplyDeleteI think we all saw it coming. We all knew that she was more concerned about her programs than her own family. It became obvious when she was trying to cover up for Montag. She was only trying not to get arrested. She cared too much about her friends.
@Michael:
ReplyDeleteI think Beatty is a hypocrite. He says books are terrible, but I suspect by all his knowlege he was reading. I agree with Heidi that he was an opressed intellectual.
@Michael--He was being hypocritical, and he manipulated people to cover it up. I feel that maybe he shouldn't even be a fireman.
ReplyDelete@Rick~ I agree! I think that there are no real thoughts of the future or what you could become- it's just what's fun now, what's good now, what you can do now. There is an appalling shortsightedness to all of it.
ReplyDelete@Drew and Emma- I agree. I feel like in this chapter, I could see Beatty as a bully more than ever. To me, it seemed like he didn't even really care about his job. Burning books was his second priority. Making the people who had them feel like crap was his number one priority, like we saw with Montag.
ReplyDelete@Drew
ReplyDeletewhat you said about breaking the weak links, I saw a TV show once where someone was murdering people for being "weak" or dealing with problems because his own brother had commited suicide. Do you think Beatty could have lost someone very close to him?
@Casey as we talked about earlier in the book we had concluded that Mildred was not trust worthy because her and Montag didn't even talk or they didn't even know each other, and how can you trust someone that you don't even know. From the beginning Mildred never liked the idea of books in the house. In the end Mildred only cared about herself. Earlier in the book I think that it foreshadowed how she only cared about herself, and what might happen because of that
ReplyDelete@Michael
ReplyDeleteI think he could be the closest reader. I doubt he's the only one.
@Casey- I think one could certainly grow tired of living in such a society. Beatty had seen so many books burned, so many houses, so many people taken away. For some people, that might have made them more compassionate and empathetic, such as Montag. But for others, it would just harden them to humanity. To me it kind of appeared that he was one of those who was hardened, but understood that he was hardened. When he saw he was hardened, it may have gone against his morals or his image of himself. That could make anybody unhappy- even enough to die.
ReplyDelete@Drew- Okay, I agree. For some reason, though, it felt to me as if it was about killing. That was just the context I saw it in. But you could be right, too. Like we said, books are open to more than one interpretation.
ReplyDeleteWhat did you think about Mildred's friends? A dozen abortions? Three husbands who all died?
ReplyDelete@Kathryn:
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure that anyone in this society has anyone that they really care for. I think all they love is their perfect version of reality.
@Julia
ReplyDeleteI think that Montag had such an adrenaline rush that he wasn't even thinking about what he was doing anymore. His hands were taking control and we wasn't necessarily thinking about what was going on.
@ Julia
ReplyDeleteI think that the hands symbolize the rebellion. It's getting to be uncontrollable as if they had minds of they're own. In Macbeth, Macbeth was halucinating in the scene with the dagger, and he had the hand metaphor as well.
@class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think will happen to Mildred? She struck me as only caring about Montag to pay the bills. What will she do and where will she go?
@Julia
ReplyDeleteI think the significance of Montag's hands is that it's not necesarily Montag who is controlling this fight and rebellion inside him. Montag has been influenced by so many people (Clarisse, Faber, old woman at the house, etc.). I believe that the significance of his hands is that so many ideas and people are behind his actions. It's not just him controlling his actions.
@Savannah
ReplyDeleteI don't think they are brainwashed, I just think the speed of thinking or thinking at all in this society is so slow or nonexistent.
I think it's very interesting that Montag feels he doesn't have control of his hands. Twice now, he's said his hands began to commit an act, and he felt he had no control over what was happening. (Tearing pages out of books and when he brutally murdered Beatty with a flame thrower.)
ReplyDelete-Rick Z
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteI think that Montag's fight was with Beatty, not with the other men. Beatty was the issue there, not the other firemen.
@Vanessa- I agree wth you that Montag had an adrenaline rush. But I think that instead of it being exciting, it was more that Montag's subconscious knew what he needed to do, and took over.
ReplyDelete@Class:
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think of Montag's opinion that Mildred would forget him by morning?
@Kathryn~I don't know if he's looking for weakness, persay, but more like he's looking for people who did the same thing he did (book reading wise). I think he's trying to justify his actions through continuing to take his job so seriously.
ReplyDelete@Ellen--I feel like her friends are just as selfish as she is. Mildred doesn't care about her husband or having a family. Her friends obviously don't either. These people aren't that old, so it seems like she wants a husband just to have one. If my husband died in war, I would be devastated. I wouldn't run off and get another one as soon as possible.
ReplyDelete@Julia
ReplyDeleteit's ironic that people who think slowly speed through nature so fast.
Also, Milly considers Mrs. Phelps and Mrs. Bowles "friends", though she doesn't even know about their children? People don't seem to connect much in this society. At least not on a personal level.
ReplyDelete@Emma and Casey- I agree with Emma about how you might get tired of living in a society like that. I actually think that maybe Mrs. Phelps started crying because of that. I don't think she feels the same way that Montag does about books, but I think maybe she was so dang tired of living in a world like this where people have dozens of abortions and three husbands, and no love that maybe she just broke down. But at the same time, I think she hardened up after she left and realized that this was the way it was gonna be.
ReplyDelete@Emma
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's true. If things weren't as intense as they were, do you still think that Montag still would have killed Beatty?
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI think that Mildred's friends really symbolize society. It's all about the pursuit of pleasure and not about love or emotion really. They just throw their kids in the parlor and never talk to them. I believe that all of Mildred's friends (in contrast to the poem Montag read) show how much society has changed.
If that is the case...what was Bradbury saying about women? Are we easily manipulated? Are we typically following along with what people expect of us? Are we happy when we are being taken care of? Something to think about.
ReplyDelete@Casey
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. I think the other firemen are puzzled and have no idea what is going on. Beatty is the only one who knows about what is going on, and that is also because he reads. All the rest of the firemen follow the government- the don't know better.
@class
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Montag will be found by the hound? It seems to me that he might be alright, but the hound is said to never miss a kill.
I really agree that Beatty was just testing Montag's breaking point. He just wanted to push him to the edge and just seem him collapse, however I don't think the incident went the way Beatty planned. He didn't kill the other firemen because they were just innocent bystanders with no piece in the conflict between Beatty and Montag. He just knocked them out so he could get away.
ReplyDelete@Ellen:
ReplyDeleteI think that friends exist on the same level as family. They are pointless entertainment. So they can have fun.
@Kathryn--It doesn't surprise me. In their society, I feel like they don't care about feelings. It is like when Montag said that he wouldn't cry if Mildred died.
ReplyDelete@Vanessa
ReplyDeleteI think that Killing Beatty was inevitable. It had to be Montag. This action showed how far Montag was "gone" and what lengths he would go to to defend what he thought.
@Rick I think when someone lives in a monotonousness society then it would only feel natural to try and have because it is like they are living in a black and white picture and everyone wants to add some color to there life, but I also think that most people are scared to kind of rebel because of what the consequence might be from the government.
ReplyDelete@Rick~ I think it's really interesting that he often uses his hands without "realizing" it. He tends to do things that are so heinously wrong (at least in this society) such as stealing books and murder, and say that he didn't know what his hands were doing to maybe justify his actions.
ReplyDelete@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI think it's really sad how numb people's emotions are. I would think that Montag and Mildred's book reading time would have brought them closer, but they ended up still being very distant.
@ Julia
ReplyDeleteI agree with the nonexistent thinking, but there are people thinking. Does Montag count as someone who has a mind set like Clarrise?
@Kathryn- I don't think that Millie was only with Montag to pay the bills. I think it was more like she was in love with the idea of love- loving Montag, and then loving her parlor family.
ReplyDelete@Ellen- No, they don't connect as friends. I think Mildred considers them friends because "friends" in this society consist of people who are willing to take time out of their 'busy' schedules (you know, they have to drive the kids EVERYWHERE and make food and all of that :)) to watch the parlor walls. Friends are not friends like we know them today, but more like people who someone can relate to vaguely. It doesn't even have to be a lot of relating, as we see in Mildred when she doesn't even know her friends very well. They just have to have a tiny bit in common.
ReplyDelete@Kathryn I agree maybe he was an oppressed intellectual. I don’t think he wanted to have to read books in secret anymore. He couldn’t bear suffering through another day were he had to read in secret and live in fear that he would, one day, be discovered and arrested.
ReplyDelete@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI think Montag was right. Mildred probably will forget by morning. There is no connection or emotion anymore. For example, Mildred's friends have gone through 3 marriages! People only care about themselves and their pleasures in life. Mildred will probably move on and marry someone else without even shedding a tear.
@Inner Circle:
ReplyDeleteIf Bradbury had written this book now instead of 50 years ago, would the characters or even the plot be different?
@Katie~ Interesting point with the family::friends::entertainment thing. I agree with the fact that people are only really there for other people's enjoyment, and not necessarily living for themselves-especially people like Millie and her friends.
ReplyDelete@Ellen & class
ReplyDeleteThe women talk about not liking or caring about their kids; "They'd just as soon kick me as kiss me. Thank God, I can kick back!" They try to push off their problems onto everyone else, so they can be ok to sit in their parlor and watch the "family". So children just aren't something they want.(and that's likely why the kids that are born drive around at night, speeding, trying to hit pedestrians. They have no one who cares about looking after them.)
-Rick Z
@Elli- I don't think his 'hands' are justifying his acts. I don't even think those are his excuse. I think he sincerely is just so numbed by the society that when his mind gets a new plan to do something so against the government and society rules, then his hands and body can't follow yet. I think that he's just all messed up because he's never done anything like this yet.
ReplyDeleteIsn't there a large part of the population that easily accepts what is given to them...who would never really question what society expects of them? Maybe the women were used to represent a larger part of the population.
ReplyDelete@Colleen, yes, but on the other hand, do you think that Mildred and Montag would love each other in today's society? I sort of doubt it. I think that Mildred doesn't want a husband or a family. And she completely has that right. I think she got married more for something to do than because it actually meant something. So while it's still *wrong*, I can see why she wouldn't care if her husband died. I think it's the same way with the other women. They don't want to be married, or have a family, but they do/are, therefore, they don't care. They would be fine if their loved ones died as long as they have their TVs. Again, it's not right, but it makes complete sense.
ReplyDelete@emma
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting thought. Maybe Millie just married because of hormones. Maybe she just wanted experiences, and so she could tell her friends she was married. For status.
With that husband going to war, the wives were told the husband will be back in 48 hours or a week. War is never like that. It never goes that way. Look at the Civil War each side thought the war would last a couple months, but it lasted five, bloody years. In WWI Germany thought they would win in weeks, the war lead onto four, disgusting years. It just never goes as planned.
ReplyDelete@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteI think it just happened on accident that the women are the only characters portrayed as dumb. We just don't know the other men that well- like the other firemen- and I don't think a woman is going to be a fire chief.
@mmoritz I think that women are easily manipulated because they don't seem to smart and when a society runs in this way I think that it is normal for women to manipulated because in our day and age women used to be very easy to manipulate because that's how society expected them to be, they expected them to be the women of the house and the man should wear the pants in the house. I think that this is how most of their society runs.
ReplyDelete@class
ReplyDeleteHow do you think the war will affect the story. It keeps coming up in multiple conversations, but so far it hasn't played a major role in the plot.
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteI think that we do tend to follow what people expect of us. If everyone is doing something, then we do the same thing. A lot of us don't like to stand out of the ordinary. For example, If I were to go through a drive through and there is a certain way to go, then I wouldn't drive through the other way, would I? I would follow the other cars.
@Michael:
ReplyDeleteWho would burn Beatty's house, though? The fire chief helps burn the houses, and I don't think Beatty would burn his own house.
@Rick--do some parents to this today? My children were in daycare all day long until they went to Kindergarten. Now they are in school all day long with other teachers teaching them. How am I that much different than the women in the book?
ReplyDelete@Moritz- I don't know what to think about the women in this book. They are all such fake personalities, and no one I would EVER want to hang out with. Is that how Bradbury saw women? Is that how women were seen as during that time period? Is that how he think women would be treated now? I'm not sure if we'll ever know...he might have left that open to interpretation as part of the story.
ReplyDelete@Hailey~ I understand that, but I think he's saying that he doesn't really know what he's doing and he says that his hands are acting of their own accord, which I think is implying that he doesn't really know what they're doing.
ReplyDelete@Alexis
ReplyDeleteI disagree. I don't think that's how society is supposed to be. Looking at the evidence, there isn't anything that suggests that a women was supposed to run the house. If you look at other parts of the house, the door has a robot doorbell. Couldn't this be used elsewhere?
The women were complete psychos. They just payed attention to their walls and nothing else. They don't care about their lives, they just care about society and how it benefits them. Or what happens in their TV shows. Women just don't have good statuses. They were almost tools on a chessboard.
ReplyDelete@class- Joe just said something about how when Mildred took too many sleeping pills, they sent over a mechanic rather than a doctor. This just made me think this: I think that symbolizes that people are becoming more like machines, programmed to do what the government wants, not having a mind of their own. What do you guys think?
ReplyDelete@ Class
ReplyDeleteDo we even know what the war is about?
@ Kathryn
Maybe the war will bring books back. It should be and independent decision to whether you choose to read or not.
@ Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI think the war is supposed to be symbolic. I don't think it will ever become a major part of the story. I think it's meant to symbolize that not everything is perfect in the world. That the society is fighting a new possibility.
@Reid
ReplyDeleteDo you think that men in the society were attached to the parlor walls too?
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI think the war will make it so that the Wives back at home will have to "step up to the plate" they will not have husbands to take care of them any more.
@Elli- I understand that, too. Both ways I could see. (Hi, Farley!:))
ReplyDelete@class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think about the war going on? It seems, (judging from the low key radio announcement), that it's just another news story. If it is an atomic war (pg73), why isn't this a big deal?
-Rick Z
About the the population- I think that the people do not see the flaws in their society because they do not WANT to see the flaws in their society. They want their society to be perfect, so they tell themselves that it is. Then along comes the realists, who see the problems and acknowledge them. These are the people like Clarisse. And then there's Faber, who I think sees the problems, but is too afraid to do something about it.
ReplyDelete@Moritz:
ReplyDeleteYou know your children's names and you obviously care about them, where the women in the book barely know their names and so obviously don't care.
@mmoritz I think that in every society there are a large amount of conformist. I think that what society expects of us is what we give the society. Being "normal" in terms of how the society defines normal is what a large amount of what the population wants, but there is also the small amount of the society that doesn't conform as shown by Clarisse
ReplyDelete@Moritz
ReplyDeleteI think that most of society does just accept what is given to them.I think that in this society that Bradbury had created, most people's lives were centered around themselves. They didn't care about society's thoughts, they cared about how happy they were themselves. I believe that life for these people was just about fun and how great they could make their own life.
@Taylor
ReplyDeleteThinking that women should "step up", so far, they seem to be doing pretty well on their own. I mean, look and Millie's friends, they talk about their husbands as just being there, but not really in their lives.
@Moritz- You're different because you take time in your kids lives to enrich them in different ways than teachers can. These women don't at all. You care about your children, they don't.
ReplyDeletePeople always die in war it is just hard to know the people who do a small majority of the soldiers die so the chance of knowing some one in such a large population who dies in a battle is a very slim chance.
ReplyDelete@Kathryn I think war will be a big part of the plot. Faber foreshadows “Patience, Montag. Let the war turn off the ‘families’,” (p87). It maybe the thing that wipes out this society. If the war wipes out this society then, they will have a clean slate and be able to rebuild a society were books aren’t burned.
ReplyDelete@Moritz
ReplyDeleteThat happens to alot of working parents, but it's those who take time out of their schedules to spend time with their children that are the great parents. Kids need to know they're noticed ans loved and they should come before work does, especially at home.
@class why is it so important to be close to your family? Why is it different than being close to your friends and such?
ReplyDelete@class
ReplyDeleteWe see the society in the book as so insane and awful but aren't there a lot of similarities between that and our current world today? We see this society as scary and intimidating, but aren't we similar enough to start heading in that direction?
@mmoritz: When your children come home from daycare and school, you ask them how their day went, maybe give them a snack, and always tuck them in at night with a goodnight kiss. These women don't give their kids the love that parents today hopefully do. My parents truly care about how my life is going, and the direction it is going.
ReplyDelete-Rick Z
@ mmoritz
ReplyDeleteWell, the one women talks about having a purposeful Cesaerian section, and that shows that she didn't really want to put in the effort to have her children. Many people do that of course, and ther is nothing wrong with that. But the way she talks about her children makes it sound like she doesn't care. She said that they were her debt to society or something.
@Emma- I agree. I think that society in this book is not naive, but rather, afraid, to do anything about the way they are treated or the way they have been raised by society. I think this is similar to society today, actually. We in society, say we don't like something but we don't do much about it. Granted, there are people who do something about it, which is better than this society, but still....we're a long way from being perfect.
ReplyDelete@ Moritz
ReplyDeleteWith what you just said, it think it is still different in the book. The women said they disliked the kids and never see them or the kids just watch TV. You may not spend a lot of time with your kids, but when you do have time you cherish it. Here is the question that differs you from the moms in the book.
@Alexis
ReplyDeleteIt's essential to be close to your family. A person learns the basics of life at home, and if they have a bad experience, then they won't want to have a home of their own.
@Elli
That's a great experience, because one of the best things about being parents is experiencing the little things in their child's life, like losing a first tooth or helping them take their first step.
@Michael
ReplyDeleteI think you're right. The war will most likely play a huge part in the rebellion. I predict that with Montag's started rebellion and the war, society will finally start to change.
@classWhat do you think that the government is in the book?
ReplyDeleteColleen and I were just talking, and we think the thing that drives these somewhat "un-loved" children is guilt. The guilt of "ruining their parent's lives" or their parents not wanting them would drive these kids to extremes, and that explains so much about the kids in Fahrenheit. They aren't loved or wanted, and they are trying to fill that hole.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteBut what about the dads? Its not only the moms not caring!
@katheryn C it is no different if a nanny raises the child they still learn and in this society everyone's life is bad so the outcome of the child is not different,
ReplyDelete@Moritz:
ReplyDeleteI agree with how some parents only see their children when driving them to activities, but it's not always the parents' fault. I sign myself up for everything. My parents just pay. :)
@Julia: I think all the dads are in the war!
ReplyDelete@Casey--so true. I have friends who had c-sections on purpose because they didn't want to go through the pain of delivery and they didn't want their hips to spread. Ridiculous.
ReplyDelete@Alexis--I think it is important to remain close to your family because they will be there the rest of your life. You can't just get rid of them. Friends can leave. If you build up a good relationship with your loved ones, then you will be happy the rest of your life. If you hate them all, you are stuck with them and stuck with a crappy outlook on life.
ReplyDelete@Alexis~ what do you mean? Like it's a good thing when you participate in your child's life? (not meaning to like, diss my parents or anything. They did a pretty good job, considering). Plus they moved when they realized that they wanted to do that.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDelete@Julia: I think all the dads are in the war!
_Rick Z
@Class
ReplyDeleteWe seem to be making a lot of assumptions here. Do we even know that it's America or anything like that?
My parents aren't too good with the life lesson speeches or the whole good advice thing, but I know that they're hearts are in the right place. They truly care about me, but I can't say the same for te children in this book. Clarrisse had what each child should have, but it makes me upset that these children are growing up without a helping hand putting them in the right direction.
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI don't think the children should feel guilty for "ruining their parent's lives" because their parents chose to have a family. Also, parents teach their children nearly everything, and therefore kids learn habits from their parents.
@ Julia
ReplyDeleteThe dads are either off at work or just don't live with the family. At this point the dads could also be on the military.
@ Class
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly what I meant when I said I see this as an awareness.
Parents are so busy, children don't know what love and compassion is. When they mature and become adults on their own, the don't know how to find love or know how to love. It's because they were raised this way.
@Moritz:
ReplyDeleteWhat we will do for looks. I think that is the main thing that controls us today (Girls at least). Just like electronics control the women in Farenheit 451.
@Class
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Faber is going to be tracked down and killed?
@vanessa yes.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@Casey
ReplyDeleteThat's almost the opposite of my family. We are always getting life lessons form my dad, even while we're watching Star Trek, but I've learned over time that that is how my dad shows that he loves me and is worrying for me and my future.
@Drew- that's basically what I said. I think that our society is a LOT like this society. Granted, our flaws our hidden by the amazing things we have in this world, but we have the same flaws. We say that the people in this society are stupid to not do anything and are just hiding, but we do the exact same thing. I know that when I see poverty, hunger, war or anything that makes me sad on tv, I turn it off. I hide. I always think that if I don't help, then there are 10 more people in place of me that will put my thoughts into actions. So, I think we need to NOT blame the other people in society in this book. They are hiding just like I am, and I'm assuming just like most of you do.
ReplyDeleteFinal thought??
ReplyDelete@Inner Circle:
ReplyDeleteWhat is happiness? Are we happy? Or is true happiness just based on your point of view?
@ class
ReplyDeleteWe keep talking about how it's important to stay close to your loved ones, and I agree, but do you think that closeness even exists in this book? Montag and Mildred didn't even remember when they first met!
@Julia the dads are detached too. The thing is, though, historically, in a situation with a mom and a dad, dads are usually less involved. When people are scared, they call for their moms. When I'm sick, it's my mom who's there. It's always more shocking to see moms who don't care. It's unfortunately more normal to see a dad who doesn't care.
ReplyDelete@Drew- I agree with you. In our society today, there are many issues we see that the government would be able to solve. But we feel powerless to make that happen. The government is supposed to be by the people, for the people. I know I feel like if I wrote a letter to the president, it would never reach him. Maybe the people of this society feel the same way.
ReplyDelete@Reid and Rick
ReplyDeleteThat is exactly what I am talking about. If they just don't live at home then its not only the moms neglecting the kids! this is a two-person job- it is not only the mother's responsibility to raise a child so in this book it is not only the moms' faults that the kids are messed up!
@Kathryn--I think what Ellen was saying is that some of these kids weren't wanted. I was an accident, but my parents were happy to have me. These parents still don't want their kids. If I were in their situation, I would feel guilty that I am not wanted, and I made my parents upset.
ReplyDelete@class
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Montag will survive throught the war time evnt though he is not really IN the war?
@inner circle- You guys are assuming a LOT. You guys are saying that a ton of this stuff is the 'norm', yet the book hasn't said that, and we haven't even seen any other people other than the main characters. How do we know what the norm is just because of three characters?? That may be a billionth of the population, but I'm not sure, because I'm not assuming the population. The assumptions you are making may really affect the story. I just think we should be careful of that.
ReplyDelete@Kathryn C Not always. In a lot of situations, parents don't plan to have a family. It just happens. And those are the times when parents end up not wanting their children. Not all families are planned, and not all families are families.
ReplyDelete@hailey
ReplyDeleteI think that people in our society realize the problem that we face, but either don't know how to fix them, will fix the problems incorrectly(resulting in more problems), or are just too lazy to do anything,
@Taylor:
ReplyDeleteI think that the military will keep the war away from the home front.
@Kathryn- happiness is based on point of view. What may be true happiness to me may be different than true happiness to you.
ReplyDelete@Hailey
ReplyDeleteThat is exactly was I mean. Just like in the society in the book, we aren't taking the initiative and taking part in our society. We act just like the people in the book. There society is slightly more extreme than ours but if we are so similar to them, our society could easily get to that place.
@ Class
ReplyDeleteThe world is over populated. In 1804 there was 1 billion people.In 2054, there is supposed to be 9 billion; over 250 years the population increases by 8 billion. It just represents the fact that what Heidi said was the ugly truth.
@ Julia
ReplyDeleteI agree!. My parents talk about this all the time. No matter how many kids you have it takes two people to raise a responsible and aware child.
My dad's co- worker is divorced, and ever since then she has never been more involved with her kids.
Montag just said goodbye to Faber. So you think that Faber will go just like Clarrise? Was he just another person that influenced MOntag's perspectiveon the world around him?
ReplyDelete@Hailey:
ReplyDeleteChocolate!!!! That is true happiness. :)
@Katie what military? We're not even sure that there is a standing army. We know that there is a war and men fighting, but that doesn't mean there is a military willing to defend the people.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that Montag thought he could make a final speech before he gets caught by the hound, and that 10-30 MILLION people would witness it on live TV. (pg135). Especially early in the morning.
ReplyDelete-Rick Z
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI like that thought, how each person has their own happiness. I think it also depends on what they are exposed to, and how well they handle change. The world changes everyday, and happiness can only come when someone is not focusing on the negative.
@Class
ReplyDeleteIn the end, I think Mildred will suffer the karma from her actions and die. What are other opinions?
@Reid- But you're assuming that that stat will still be true in 2025. Nothing in this book is normal, so why should they population growth?
ReplyDelete@Hailey and Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI think Hailey makes a great point when it comes to true happiness. Anyone can convince themselves that they are happy. Montag did at the beginning of the book. If one does not really think about it, they can easily believe that they are truly happy.
@Savannah
ReplyDeleteThank you!
@Casey Smoots
ReplyDeleteI don't think Faber will die I think he will in some way escape and survive.
money buying happiness is very true. If you have all the money in the world you can do what you want and make your own reality. Poor people are always stresses about paying there bills and have alot of problems in their life.
ReplyDelete@Reid
ReplyDeleteI think that Mildred won't come back. I think she was just another caltalist, like Clarrise, and she has played her role and done her purpose.
@ Class
ReplyDeleteAfter reading these pages in Fahrenheit 451, I was very surprised by what happened. I think that the reason Beatty wanted to die is because he was simply tired of living. He may have recognized that the rest of the firemen, and society could easily continue without him. Beatty may have realized that all he truly did in life was made others such as Montag unhappy.
I think that Montag trusted Mildred with his secret at the beginning, otherwise he wouldn't have told her about the books. I think his trust in Mildred deteriorated as he began to question their relationship. Mildred may not have planned on telling Beatty about the books at first, but once Montag upsetted her friends, Mrs. Phelps and Mrs. Bowles, Mildred may have felt that she needed to do something. Mildred definitely showed that she cared much more about her "friends" and technology than her husband.
Maybe Montag blamed his hands for grabbing the flamethrower and taking the books because he believed that it really wasn't him. Montag felt that he would never do anything to harm another person, so blaming his hands on the action may have made him feel less guilt. Also, when he took the books, he blamed his hands. He may have felt less guilty by saying that his hands were doing it, not him.
From Beatty's knowledge of all of the quotes, I think that Beatty must have read many, many more books than he admitted to. It makes me wonder why Beatty wasn't ever caught.
It seems like war is mentioned in the story to demonstrate how powerful the society is and how the citizens have no say in what the government does. It also seems like the citizens, especially Montag, don't care what is happening with the war, but are more invested in their own personal problems.
It is interesting that Radbury made women seem like weak and unintelligent beings with little care for their families. Maybe he was trying to imply that in the future, we may become so invested in tecnology, that we wont spend time with our families. He may have also been predicting that the human race will become less interested in education as technology advances.
I think that Faber may be tracked down and killed, but he also is very intelligent and wise, and may be capable of avoiding being caught.
If tecnology continues to advance, I think that people will simply become less inteligent, less caring of others, and less invested in society. I think that part of Ray Bradbury's purpose in writing Fahrenheit 451 was to illustrate the dangers that tecnology presents.
@class:
ReplyDeleteI think that Beaty was "a closet reader." He seems to know way to many quote from so many books. Just getting curious and reading one book could not have given him all of those quotes from his "dream." Also, why does Beaty keep putting Montag on the spot so many times? What does he expect to get out the conversation?
With Mildred, why would she turn in her husband. He trusted her to keep his secret until he had gone through all of his books. Yet she still called the police on him. Although it couldn't have helped when Montag went off on her friends. Why would he bring out a book of poetry? Did he not expect Mildred's friends to report him? What was going through his mind?
I think that in that society everyone is worried about how they look and how many walls of television they have, that they don't consider what truly matters.
When Mildred left in the taxi before Montag burned the house I kind of feel like that was closure for Montag. That even though it wasn't official, it was a form of divorce.
I am curious to see what happens to Faber and Mildred. If Mildred will be arrested for hiding the books at first, or if she will be left alone because she turned Montag in. I really hope that nothing happens to Faber, I like his character.
Finally, I think that we may just be over thinking Montag saying that after a while his leg stopped hurting. His adrenaline could simply have taken over. I know that when I cut my feet open while playing out front with my neighbors I don't feel anything until the game has stopped or calmed down. A persons' adrenaline can make people to stop feeling pain and do amazing things.