The ending really just dropped off. I was really upset. When I turned the page, I expected a whole new chapter with an action scene or a dramatic ending. Instead, I was dissapointed with a complete flop.
I hadn't really minded the ending. Yes, it could have been much better, but I have also read many worse endings. The point that disappointed me the most was how Montag hadn't accomplished anything besides being chased by the police.
I agree with Savannah--I think that the author left it open at the end for us to come to our own conclusions. I'm glad that I am given the opportunity to decide how the city is destroyed and then rebuilt from the war.
@Baergen Perhaps he chose to end the book that way because he wasn't really looking for closure. As said earlier in the inner circle, Montag can start over with his life. Maybe that's the happy ending.
@Baergen He probably chose the end the book this way because when the city collapsed it seemed to symbolize a new era and a new beginning. It leaves the reader to keep thinking about his book even after they finished reading it and allows them to really come up with their own ending based on how they interpreted the book.
@Inner Circle I agree with Eliza, Bradbury purposfully left some loose ends so that you can make your own decisions and you can decide how this world will turn out with all the flaws that is already had.
Did anybody ready the afterword and coda? I thought that what Bradbury said about writing a play that was an alternate beginning was interesting. I really liked the other beginning.
@Julia That wasn't the only way to end the book. Brandbury could have ended it in several other ways, he could have even ended it with Montag dying from the mechanical hound.
@Inner Circle I feel like the ending ended the way it did because it was a warning to the people who read the book. If it ended with society going on and nothing progressive happening it would not leave a lasting impression on the reader; an ending where society is completely wiped out leaves a more lasting impression on the reader.
@mmoritz It's kind of like The Lady or The Lion. We were left to answer our questions without help from the author. It's frustrating, but I also think that it's a creative way to end the novel.
There was one event that struck a chord in me. That the government in Montag's world took an innocent man's life to keep the public happy and to save face. How many times has our government and media done this to us, lied to appease us?
I agree with what you said about the city collapsing symbolizing a new beginning. I wonder if now books might start being legal again because of a new power in government.
@Brooke I agree. I think that if he had finished the book in a way that provided closure, I probably would not have continued thinking about the book. In a way the ending was a disappointment, but it really made me think about the book as a whole.
@Brooke If Montag was killed by the mechanichal hound, what would that say about the future about this society? If there was a dramatic ending, then it would not match the rest of the book and would be unrealistic. Montag had to live, because if he of all people doesn't live, then society has won.
I agree with Eliza. I thought the ending was very appropriate because Montag was so upset and confused throughout most of the book. When he met the men in the forest, it seemed like Montag had an epiphany and realized what he wanted to believe in. He found his true opinion and belief. He didn't know what he wanted to do with his life and now he does.
@Brooke Yes I agree Bradbury wants you to think about the book for the rest of your life so that if something like the situation in the book starts to happen in our own society we are thinking of how terrible it will become.
@Michael~ I definitely agree- it wasn't very dynamic or climactic, but it left a very important impression on people-that this ending is possible and probable for us. If it was exciting and disconnected, we wouldn't really see parallels to our own life but because there were so many things that, with the right catalysts, could actually happen it left a more lasting impression.
@Casey That's a great connection. I completely agree. It keeps the reader thinking, though it may aggravate them because there is no set ending and they are provoked to think of their own, they are still thinking about the story and that is what an author wants for their book. The more people that think about it, the more they will be willing to talk to others about it and others are going to want to know what that person is talking about so they too will read it and there will be a whole group of people that this continues to go through.
@Michael--I agree. Even though it wasn't exactly a good ending, it still encourages me to step up and challenge the system. I think because the city is destroyed, it helped the people realize what was wrong.
I agree that the book left the reader hanging, but not in a good way. It just ended! It's almost as if Bradbury was looking for a way out of this book. And I know, I know, Ray Bradbury was one of the "greatest authors of all time". I get it. But that doesn't mean that he didn't get tired of writing his own book...
@Baergen and Brooke I think Bradbury purposefully left the ending open so readers will think about what could possibly happen and leave us with thoughts of everything books give us.
@Julia But what if that was a point he was trying to get across? I'm not saying that is his point that society will always win, but you have to think that Clarisse died too. And society won there didn't it?
@Toni I'm not so sure about that. The government wasn't a major factor in the story, but society was. Perhaps society will change, but I don't think that the entire government will change.
I don't think that even though a whole city was destroyed, the people would realize everything was wrong with their lives. They're completely brainwashed, and it's near impossible to override that. So even if they feel a twinge of sadness inside of them for the loss of life, it's just another event on the TV, something to enjoy.
@Class What do you all think that the point of the scene with Montag being in that farm house (?) and looking at the girl as she went from room to room and would sit by the window? Who was he looking at?
@Ellen I felt exactly the same way about Clarisse ending. I know that she served her purpose and everything, but it just felt random and like he didn't put much thought into it. This ending was kind of the same way for me, even if it left me thinking.
How do you think Mildred and Montag met? I knw that Montag remembers that it was in Chicago, but what happened there? Were they ever in love or was it an arranged marriage?
@Gabe I did not like the ending of the book. I thought there would be another scene where Montag would fight the government or something wild like that, but it never happened. I think Montag will travel with his comrades and maybe eventually venture out on his own. Nia
if the government wasn't a major factor, then why was the book banned as an anti-government book? The government is society and society is the government.
@Arman I think they have been together for a long time because they seem to know each other really well. They all know what the other has memorized in terms of books. They also spend a lot of time together walking the railroad tracks so, you can think they since they don’t have TV they talk to each other a ton
@Ellen Many authors did this to their own books. But, i think this book was written with much more of a purpose than most other book. Bradbury wants you to be left thinking he doesn't want to set an opinion into your mind he wants to set a thought into your mind so you can draw your own opinions.
@Toni I don't think it was an arranged mariiage. I think they were both young and thought they knew what love was. I don't think they really saw to the future of how they would be in 10 years. -Kathryn
I love the way Bradbury describes Millie's demise "He saw her leaning toward the great shimmering walls of color and motion where the family prattled and chatted and said her name and smiled at her and said nothing of the bomb that was an inch, now a half inch, now a quarter inch from the top of the hotel..."(159. How dos this compeltely sum up Millie's character?
@Toni~ I doubt it was an arranged marriage, but I think they probably felt about each other the way they do now. More or less indifferent but no one really cares that much about their spouses anyway.
@Outer Circle Did you think it was kind of wierd that Granger told Montag that he would remember the Bible verse eventually, but then a few minutes later, he remembers it? I thought it happened too soon. What do you think?
If the main location of the government was hit by a bomb then a new government could very well come to power. I am not saying that that is definitely what happened or will happened but it is a strong possibility.
However, the ending is definitely thought-provoking, but.... It wasn't worth it. In the end, Montag didn't do anything that wouldn't have happened later in the bomb. He went through all this trouble just to do things that would have been done anyway, had he just waited a couple days.
I think the city being bombed and completely wiped out at the end showed how Montag has a new beginning. He has removed everything from his past, and can now have a fresh start.
@ Brooke Mabey the girl that Montag had seen was Mildrid. She did leave him, that can be tramatic, and in a stressfull situation the mind makes us see things we wish we had.
When montag was floating along in the river, I thought possibly it was like him absolving himself of his sins, like a baptism. Or maybe because water is the opposite of fire. fire destroys, and water gives life, and that's why he never wanted to leave.
@MMoritz I think this sums up her character because she is so totally oblivious and ignorant of the real world and even at her end the thing she cares about most are her parlor walls.
@Kathryn: Are you sure they didn't know what love was? I think Montag might have. He did watch that girl when he was on the farm. Do you think he loved her? Do you think that before Mildred became addicted to technology, he could have loved her?
@Moritz I also loved the way that he did this. This completely sums up Mildred's character because even when she was about to die, she was watching her 'Family' until the end and was completely clueless to the outside world. She was only concerned as to what was going on with the 'Family,' a fake people, not the people that actually exist in the world.
@Class As mentioned in the inner circle, what do you think about Montag suddenly remembering where he Mildred met? Does he feel something for her now that she is facing death?
@Moritz I think that shows Millie's character because it describes how much she loved her "family". Some people say to live every moment like it was your last, and that isn't at all what Millie was doing. But if it was how she lived, would much change? -Kathryn
@moritz I think that it implies that Millie is still unaware of her surroundings and that she is so caught up in her "family" that she does not care what else happens outside of her own life. She is still self centered and I feel like the books did not have any influence on her as if she was ignorant about the outside world. Nia
@Baergen Completely. Clarisse seemed so random. I'm not sure it was pointless, but it was definitely kind of sub-par. She wasn't the catalyst that she needed to be. Montag's reaction was quite unrealistic and uncalled for, because Clarisse wasn't *that* important to the story.
@Reid Right, but they just killed a guy that was just walking around. He didn't even have books with him and they weren't searching his house for books. By society's definition, he was normal.
@Toni--In my opinion, I think that Mildred and Montag got married just to get married. Like Mildred's friends were saying that they have had multiple husbands, it doesn't seem like they care about *him.* It is more just about saying that they have one, and providing something to do.
@Arman - The killing of the innocent man is haunting, but we was a pedestrian. He was considered someone "unusual", so the TV workers figured he was okay to be killed. After all, there were millions of peopole watching on TV they had to please.
@mmoritz Millie's character in general doesn't even seem like a human being. She is not intellectual or emotional. I think this quote really describes how little of a person she really is.
@Ellen Yes Bradbury may have gotten tired of writting this book but he was clever about how he ended it so that he didn't implant only one opinion into your mind.
@Inner Circle They were seeming to make it all into a playing game. Even when they had everyone open their doors, the government was still toying with all of the people and making them all play this huge game out of it. They didn't show the seriousness of the situation that would have been shown today. They government also were seeming to make an example of Montag even though they didn't actually make Montag the example in the end. It's disgusting that they killed the innocent man that was just walking along the street,
@Toni I totally agree. I thought that was very sad and frusterating. However, I think that happens in a way today. I know people who would do anything to keep up their reputation. They do and say things all the time that make them look good, but they are lies. I think this is what they are doing here. They have too keep up the hound's reputation of him finding and killing every victim it is assigned. They have to do that to keep everyone afraid so that no one else will want to try to rebel.
@Casey I don't think Montag feels any love towards Mildred. I think he regrets how they spent the last 10 years together and somehow he thought if he could remember where they met, then somewhere along the line, he woulld know they loved each other. -Kathryn
I agree with your idea of why Montag was in the water and why he didn't want to leave, in some situations water is seen as relief and life. He wants to start new, so this could be his way of becomeing a new person
It shows how oblivious Millie was, and how self-absorbed and entertainment-minded. She was a representative of the normal person. By describing millie's demise, he described the whole city's, only it was more of an impact for us, as there was a personal connection.
@Heidi~ That is so true! I definitely agree that water gives life and fire brings death-and also that fire causes ash and water is a cleanser. For example, a connection from Macbeth-when Macbeth says that all the water in the ocean could not cleanse the blood off his hands. Water is a way to become clean both physically, mentally and emotionally.
@EllyJ I think that it was too early to be able to remember. When I try to remember something, it usually takes me days, but I also think that traumatic experiences can cause people to remember quicker than they would under normal circumstances.
@Class Since the innocent man was killed, what if he had a family? What is the government going to tell them when he doesn't come back home that night?
@katie The one person I think had a grip on reality was Clarrise. She was the only one that looked at nature and the beauty of it, instead of speeding by it. -Kathryn
That is a good point. No one really cares about there spouses in this society.
@Elly J
I don't think that it was odd the Granger said that Montag would remember it then he did. If something emotional happens to you and it has a great impact on your life you can remember anything.
I'm sad that people are disappointed with the ending. I think that when Bradbury says "Montag began walking and after a moment found that others had fallen in behind him, going north. Her was surprised, and moved aside to let Granger pass, but Granger looked at him and nodded him on. Montag went ahead," (164) he is showing us that Montag is now the leader he is supposed to be and he will lead this new community towards greater things. I think it is a really inspirational ending.
@Rick Montag walked home from work and he had done that for years and no one thought anything of it. This guy could have been doing anything and really they have no reason to kill every pedestrian they see because people still can walk. What I'm saying is that we are not sure of what that guy was doing and he could have very well been a guy going to his job to put food on the table.
@Arman - Yes, but he was walking late at night. Likely just to go for a casual walk, not to get home or go to work. He didn't have a purpose, which was unusual in this story
I think that in this book, people were so selfish and desensitesed that, even if the person was a rebel, there really was no grip on reality. -Lauren T.
@Kathryn I agree. He must have tried to find some excuse for their marraige. If he could remember why he loved her, then there had to be something there.
@Ellen I agree completely. I just feel that some parts of this book just didn't really go together. I really felt that for the ending to be better, Clarisse should have stayed in the story for at least a little longer. I think that once Clarisse left, I knew the book wouldn't be what I wanted it to be. She needed to do more to be the wonderful, amazing character everything thought she was, and that was proven correct in the ending of the book.
@Katie Fun today seems to be heading towards the way that fun is in the book. But today we seem to still have more fun getting out and playing a sport for example. I know that I would rather go out and play basketball with friends instead of sitting inside staring at a screen rotting away my brain as the society around me decides that is what we should all think is more fun. That we should all just stay inside thinking what they all want us to think.
@Katie~ I think that in the book fun is defined by what can bring the most thrill right now. For example, even when they're watching the parlor, all the shows are "5 minute romance" or a short nonsensical show. I think that the definition of fun is different as well as time and boredom-even "fun" things become boring after awhile.
@ class if you read the afterword by Bradbury, he talks about why Clarrise was taken out. He mentions that he thinks that she should have come back, but he won't change the story. I don't think she would have done much had she come back. -Kathryn
@mmoritz I think it represetns Mildred's personality really well. She is so obsessed with her "family" and television that she doesn't notice anything else. I think that scene was almost funny because it shows she is so stupid that a bomb could be that close to her, yet she doesn't notice.
@Katie I think that Beatty had some sort of a grip on reality because he seemed to know his literature well, but I think that everyone else was so absorbed with their TVs that they did not realize reality. I think the only other people who could have a sense of reality are those who were dedicated to books before the government banned all reading of books.
@MMortitz Yes I agree with you. I think the ending is very clever because it doesn't conclude every single little strand but it doesn't have to. It was a great ending because its inspirational in a way, people were following their hearts instead of the mob. Instead of mob mentality they are finally able to follow a leader who may bring free thought back.
@mmoritz I suppose it would be inspiring. But unfortunately, I didn't get the meaning out of those words when I read it. There are a lot of books that we find to have a "drop off" ending, but I think that we should eally start to look for a deeper meaning in all of them.
@MMoritz I agree with you. I think I may be seeing the ending differently because this is the second time I have read the book. People see this as a disappointing ending, a cliffhanger, but I think it is a powerful ending. I don't think that just because Bradbury does not specifically tell us what happens next does not make it a bad ending. I agree that it is an inspirational ending, and people can take it as they want and hopefully be braver to stand up for what they believe in.
Although, I have to agree with Kathryn also. Clarisse definitly had a grip on reality, but it was so extreeme it basicly got her killed. She may have had seen things as they were, but she wasnt observante enough to see that people were going to hurt her if she didnt seem "normal." -Lauren T.
I don't think that the government will tell the innocent man's family that he isn't coming home that night. I think they will just let it go, let that mans family figure out what happened on their own. But if they do tell his family they might just say that he was hit by a car. Just like Montag almost was when he was running from the police before the hound was let loose.
@Baergen~ I agree that Clarisse should have been in the book longer but not necessarily the entire book. I just think that she dropped off too early and Montag had to go hunt down Faber before he could actually change anything, so Faber was almost Montag's replacement for Clarisse.
One quote I thought was interesting was on page 150: "Professor West here did quite a bit for ethics, an ancient study now..." Ethics? an ancient study? Maybe that's why the innocent pedestrian was killed
@Elli: Do you think that that could ever entertain us? I don't know about you, but my entertainment is excersize. I don't know if our society today could sit in front of the t.v. all day every day. Most people, at least.
When Montag was walking along the tracks and thinking of Clarisse, I think it was Bradbury's way of showing that Montag was following Clarisse's path, picking up where she left off. And then one of the hobos was talking about his grandpa and when he died, a piece of him stayed with him. And it makes me think how when we leave this earth, there will be someone to replace us, but also to carry on our legacy.
@Elli I agree that "fun" even today is built on things that are quick and have the illusion of fun. However, many of the things people think are fun don't benefit them at all, quite the opposite. It's difficult for people to find something that is fun to them, but is better in the long run. -Kathryn
I believe that Millie was killed off because it proved that she had done something wrong to harm Montag and it gave Montag more of a reason to go back in to town and make changes because his wife was dead there and gave him a reason to go back. He was really affected by the fact of her leaving him and her dying.
@Rick The idea of "ethics" and what is "ethical" is interesting. Ethics will always exist, however I strongly believe that their "ethics" are quite different than our "ethics".
@Julia S.--I think that the ending to this novel was indeed inspirational as well as a cliffhanger. I think that because it is a cliffhanger it is inspiring because I am able to interpret what I want in the book, and make certain things meaningful to me.
@Inner Circle I think the river represents everyone else. It just goes with the flow and doesn't have move power individually but in mass it is overwhelming.
@Class I think Joe has a good point that in our society very few people would actually open their door if the government told them to, and also, few people would have the tv on at that exact moment to hear that.
I have to agree with Katie. Tv and the internet may be really interesting, but no matter how lazy a person may be, they have to do something other than that. Like cooking or shoping, talking to friends, working. No one has the luxury to just sit around. -Lauren T.
@Kathryn It seems to be based upon the rest of society that Clarisse was talking about. No one stops and just watches what they are speeding past. Everything starts quickly, goes quickly, ends quickly. There's no "slow motion" in this society it seems.
@Class it was obviously some kind of atomic/nuclear bomb that completely destroyed the city, yet Montag, Granger, and the other men are somewhat unfazed. Has nuclear warfare become so prominent in their society that they are not surprised by it anymore? Am I the only one worried our own society will end up like that?
@Inner circle If people were to see what the government was like and not so focused on their walls they would understand what Montag did and be more in agreement.
@Katie~ Yes, I definitely think that watching tv would entertain 90% of America...it already does.
@Kathryn~ I agree that even now things that are faster, quicker, and have more thrill are more entertaining (Exhibit A: rollercoasters). But I think when the book takes place, they don't even have that "hands on" aspect. They probably have virtual rollercoasters and virtual things that are faster and more "fun".
@Class Do you think Montag and Fabor will ever see each other again? If so, what do you think will happen? Do you think Fabor will join Montag and his group?
@Katie What do you mean "normal is murderous"? I don't think anyone has a clear view of normal. People now adays think normal means fitting in and doing all of the steriotypical things in life. However, no one is exactly the same as anyone else. Normal to me is being your own self and standing out and being unique. The worst insult to me is being told I fit in because I don't want to be like everyone else. -Kathryn
@Reid: Going with the river symbolism; It has no individual brain and lives for fun. It can fairly easily be stopped or made to switch directions but is always headed downhill.
@Kathryn it is showing that the bomb was it. That was the war. It was dropped, it exploded, and whoever dropped it won. There was build-up, obviously, but the actual *war* was considered just the bombing.
@Casey I think Montag is just starting to enjoy his new found life. He might try to change society again later on, but I think right now he just wants to bask in his new way of living. -Nia
@Heidi--I disagree that when we die, someone replaces us. I agree that someone will carry on our legacy, but I think it is quite a statement to say that someone is replaced. If you think of a family where perhaps the father died, yes there may be a new husband/dad in place later, but they are never really *replaced.*
@Moritz I don’t see the ending as inspirational, I see it more as a warning to society. I don’t really see the book as a story, with a beginning, middle, and end; I see it more as a warning to society. He is showing us what society will become if we stop thinking and doing. He is encouraging the reader to challenge the system; Bradbury doesn’t want us to take things at face value but rather, to dig deeper and think about what is actually going on.
@MMoritz I agree with the quote you said and how it is inspirational. I understand your point of view and everyone else who really liked the ending. Its not that I am disappointed in the ending, I am more disappointed in the book in general.
Clarisse could have tried not ot bring a lot of attention to herself is what I mean. She doesn't have to be murdurous, she just needed to use some common sense and try to be unsensitive around people at school. It's okay to be smart and nice at home, but not in public where she could easily be killed for her oppinions. -Lauren T.
@Kathryn: What I meant is that a normal teenager for them is insane, shooting people and trying to run people over, just for fun. Clarisse, from what we saw of her, would never do that. She would never be "normal."
@Class Mrs. Moritz's quote was great. You guys should think about it from Bradbury's point of view, why would he choose to end the book in the manor that he did. if he had done a time lapse and then showed how the world would have turned out would we still be talking about it? would you even like the writing as much or would you feel like there was a forced thought. I think he chose a briliant way to end the book because it made it look and seem like rebelling against a harsh and opressive government might actaully work out.
@Toni, it's hard to imagine sitting in front of the TV all day now, (Jersey Shore marathon? No thanks) but what do you think is on TV in Montag's society (besides the families) that is so enticing?
@Elly J I think that Faber is already connected to the "gang" of professors and readers because he fits that description and he knows some people that still do things with books and such, and they must have connections to them.
I wasn't implying that you would watch TV all day every day- I meant that people spend an inordinate amount of time in front of the TV nowadays (think about when you're home sick from school- you watch tv for 5 or 7 hours sometimes) that we will quickly head in that direction.
@Elly - I would love to have Montag meet back up with Faber, Faber belongs in that group Montag met in the forest. That's one of the things Bradbury leaves for us to wonder about. However, with the atomic war, I'm saddened that the odds are slim.
@class Do you think any other city was bmbed? Why was Montag's city bombed? It must have been a fairly important city in order to get attention from the enemy. -Kathryn
@ Elli I agree. I think that roller coasters is an experience that a lot of people love today. But in the book, they lack that real life experience. Instead, they just watch TV and sort of disconnect themselves from the world.
@Ellen It doesn't seem to be and atomic or nuclear warfare. They are not that far from the city and very large bombs can be very powerful or damaging. It think war isn't very prominent in that society they might just live in a world with tons of tension and have been prepared for this kind of world. I think they are just so shocked by the bomb that they don't know what to do. I don't think our society will end up like this. Countries understand that war doesn't provide more gains than you loose. Bombs to day are very small they are used to be precise and only destroy one target not a city.
Right and wrong are relative. We talk about how this society is so bad, on a comparison to our own ethical and moral views. How we think influences the way we view the book! For all we know they're society is right! But there is no such thing as life being in black and white, it's all a muddled gray area. And only because Bradbury was the puppet master to montag, was montag able to think like us.
On page 165 it states, "And when it came his turn, what could he say, what could he offer on a day like this, to make the trip a little easier? To everything there is a season. Yes. A time to break down and a time to build up. Yes. A time ti keep silence, and a time to speak. Yes, all that. But what else. What else? Something, something..." What do you think the significance of what Montag is saying? What do you think that he is meaning by all of this?
@inner circle I agree with Hailey. I don't really like Granger. If he is already wanted and on the run, why doesn't he keep the books? He could almost be an undercover spy in my view. -Kathryn
@Ellen About the television, I think that what is on television is a way to escape from the society they are in. Today, I feel like people have so much going on with families and other things in their lives, but in the society of Fahrenheit, they really have nothing to do. They don't have families that they have to take care of, or time consuming jobs. That is why they can sit and watch television all day.
@ inner circle I think that Granger is very smart to memorize the books. But the point of books is not the books themselves and the words within. It's the lesson behind them that really matters.
Yes, she didn't go to school, but she saw the people who went there and walked around town. She was killed, maybe it was an accident or maybe it was someone who didn't like her speaking her mind in public. -Lauren T.
@Kathryn I don't really connect to any of the characters, but I really liked Montag's realization at the end of the book. I thought that he suddenly saw the world in a whole new way. I loved how happy he suddenly became.
@Baergen I have to disagree with you about how these people in the society have nothing to do. I think that they could have plenty to do, but they just choose to have nothing to do. The society may have gotten so stressed at a point that everyone just gave up and started having 'fun.'
@Heidi I disagree. I think in any society there is some black and white, not just grey. For example, in our day, it is wrong to murder, no matter the cause. And in Fahrenheit 451 it is wrong to read books. -Kathryn
@Class: What would you do if you were Clarisse in that society? Would you run and hide, try to act "Normal"? Or would you fight where society is going? Try to slow the downhill spiral?
Do you think Bradbury might have written this book in a contraversial way so that people will pay even more attention to it if he had written it in a different way. He was showing the irony of our culture today, we challenge the government but if its a little to much the government rips it out of our hands.
I was surprised that on page 159 Montag tried to cry out to Mildred to tell her to get away, don't be killed by the bombing. He really cared about her. We talked a lot about how those two don't really care about each other, But Montag felt pity for her, and also remembered a good memory of where he met her.
I agree, and I think throughout a majority of the book Montag was impulsive. Near the end he begins to think through his actions a lot more with his epiphany and it starts him down this whole new path (like what Moritz is saying right now).
@Kathryn I really didn't connect with any of the characters, which for me, is a very important part of a book. I usually do not like books which have no characters I can relate to. It makes the book a lot less realistic to me, maybe that is why I have mixed feelings towards this book.
@MMoritz I don't really get the inspirational aspect of it. It is interesting, I suppose, but I feel that Montag fell in step with these men because he would be completely alone if he didn't. He learned on this journey, sure, but he also spend most of his time thinking instead of acting. "Vision without action is merely a dream. Action without vision just passes time. Vision with action can change the world.”-Joel Barker. Montag had some great thoughts about how the world should be, but he rarely acted on them, and when he did, he did so without thinking it through, which just ended up hurting him rather than helping. I find it impressive that he had the courage to think against the government, but I don't think it's inspirational because he didn't *act* as much against the government.
@class I really like what Moritz said. I think the other cast aways had no real purpose or motivation to keep going, but when Montag appeared, they suddenly had a great new example of what to fight for. -Kathryn
@inner circle Throughout the book, peoople keep talking about the books and the words and the paper and physical features. The only point where they talk about the meaning is where they are talking about how confusing it is. I wish that Bradbury had talked about the lessons within a little more.
@Ellen But you have to remember that it takes a plan to act if you really want something done. Yes he is thinking a lot more than he is acting, but you have to think before you act. If you were in his situation would you just run around telling everyone that they are wrong to think that books are wrong to read? Or would you really think things through and come up with something that would actually impact society? Running around telling everyone that they are wrong would do nothing. He isn't yet at the stage in which he is going to act.
@Katie I think the teenagers were exactly what he said they were. Montag/Bradbury explained it perfectly, but I don't think they symbolize anything. They were just teenagers following society.
I do think that teenagers represent something. Teenagers in this situation were cold hearted killers, maybe it was to show that if things don't stop soon that everyone is going to end up killing each other anyway. Whats your oppinion? -Lauren T.
I agree that Montag taking the lead at the end of the book is the most powerful part of the book. I thought it was interesting that Montag wasn't sure if he should take the lead or if Granger would be mad.
I too found this strange. But in the face of death, or seeing your loved one's oncoming death, it can strike up some deeply buried feelings. That, or Montag wanted to love Millie, which is understandable because he lived with her for so long, so much that he actual did. He "tricked" himself, in a way, into loving her, because it might've destroyed him and everything he stood for if he didn't.
@Class I agree with Moritz. They all follow him because he is so different know than he used to be. He changed from a person of destruction to a person who's ultimate goal is to preserve what he destroyed. It shows a mental and moral gain that the other men respect and admire. The want to aspire to his status of morality. That anyone can achieve but need to be a special figure to do so. They have to notice the faults of government and the power of books that individualize themselves. The admire Montag as a person of great achievements.
@Ellen--I think this part of the book shows that he will act upon his ideas. He finally feels the support to act on his thoughts. Maybe he is a coward because he wasn't brave enough to act on his own, but I believe that if the book were to continue, we would see great things from Montag.
@Baergen--I feel the same way. I think that in order for a book to be realistic, readers need to be able to relate. The characters in this novel had so much depth (or so little) that I couldn't find a way to put myself in their shoes. I wasn't able to feel what they feel. Therefore, I don't think I was able to get the real meaning to the novel.
@Ellen He didn't act on his thoughts because he had no chance yet. The government had all the power at the moment and he himself couldn't do anything alone. He had to take time gather himself and gather others so that they could rebel in a succesfull way.
@Brooke If not now, then when? He never seemed that motivated to actually *do* something. He would act in short outbursts, which never got him anywhere.
@Katie The teenagers were probably just showing how the adults society had influenced them and how differently they act in the book compared to how they act in reality outside the book. That if something happens to grow us into this society then our kids will just be following in our footsteps and everything will just become worse and worse without another's guidance.
@Ellen I agree with you. I think that Montag somewhat wanted to be the hero who changes the society forever, but he just fell short. For me, he just seemed like an impulsive character who was stuck in the middle of doing what was thought to be correct, and actually rebelling. Once he started to "rebel" though, he couldn't stop. I don't think that it was really meaningful the way he lead all the other people, because it didn't really fit with the story. He just didn't have anywhere else to go.
@Ellen I absolutely agree. Montag is the main character, but I don't find him to be truly inspirational. He's afraid of the hound, the government, and the people. to be a leader, he would have to do more than just float down a river and think.
@Arman I think that there will be a gradual change. They are putting ideas into people's heads, but I think it will be a while until books stop being burned.
@Lauren That's an interesting perspective. Maybe it's like Lord of the Flies, where they chose sides and it ended with "join us or die", which is just what hapened. -Kathryn
@Lauren: Thanks for asking! :) I think that teenagers represent a new generation, and any changes in society. Therefore, to maintain the illusion of entertainment, I think the society is going to turn to murder.
@ CLASS why do you think that Bradbury ended the book so suddenly, do you think there was more to be said or do you think that the book was really over? @KATHRYN I dont think that having clarissa come back would have helped the story at all. I the fact that she died opened up Montags eyes to the fact that the government can do some pretty nasty things including kill a 17 year old girld who was diffrent. @ Class do you think that the purpose of the book was to motivate change? If our whole disscussion point throughout the year is ws does it take to motivate change can we even say the thing that it taes to motivate change is motivating change. If Ray Bradbury didnt write this book then people might not think about government corruptions or problems in society. This book motivates change because in it there a stories and words that show change happining.
The ending really just dropped off. I was really upset. When I turned the page, I expected a whole new chapter with an action scene or a dramatic ending. Instead, I was dissapointed with a complete flop.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think the author chose to end the book that way?
I hadn't really minded the ending. Yes, it could have been much better, but I have also read many worse endings. The point that disappointed me the most was how Montag hadn't accomplished anything besides being chased by the police.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteHow do you feel about the way Bradbury ended the book? did it meet all your expectations? How do you think Montag will live in the future?
@Casey
ReplyDeleteI think an action ending would have been unrealistic.I think Blake was right and this was really the only way to end it.
I agree with Savannah--I think that the author left it open at the end for us to come to our own conclusions. I'm glad that I am given the opportunity to decide how the city is destroyed and then rebuilt from the war.
ReplyDelete@Baergen
ReplyDeletePerhaps he chose to end the book that way because he wasn't really looking for closure. As said earlier in the inner circle, Montag can start over with his life. Maybe that's the happy ending.
@Baergen
ReplyDeleteHe probably chose the end the book this way because when the city collapsed it seemed to symbolize a new era and a new beginning. It leaves the reader to keep thinking about his book even after they finished reading it and allows them to really come up with their own ending based on how they interpreted the book.
@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteI agree with Eliza, Bradbury purposfully left some loose ends so that you can make your own decisions and you can decide how this world will turn out with all the flaws that is already had.
@Elly
ReplyDeleteIf you could change the ending would you and how would you?
@Inner circle~ Well when the a-bomb was dropped on Hiroshima it ended that war (more or less), so a bomb ENDING a war is not unfathomable.
ReplyDelete@ class
ReplyDeleteDid anybody ready the afterword and coda? I thought that what Bradbury said about writing a play that was an alternate beginning was interesting. I really liked the other beginning.
@Julia
ReplyDeleteThat wasn't the only way to end the book. Brandbury could have ended it in several other ways, he could have even ended it with Montag dying from the mechanical hound.
@Inner Circle I feel like the ending ended the way it did because it was a warning to the people who read the book. If it ended with society going on and nothing progressive happening it would not leave a lasting impression on the reader; an ending where society is completely wiped out leaves a more lasting impression on the reader.
ReplyDelete@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteIt's kind of like The Lady or The Lion. We were left to answer our questions without help from the author. It's frustrating, but I also think that it's a creative way to end the novel.
There was one event that struck a chord in me. That the government in Montag's world took an innocent man's life to keep the public happy and to save face. How many times has our government and media done this to us, lied to appease us?
ReplyDelete@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you said about the city collapsing symbolizing a new beginning. I wonder if now books might start being legal again because of a new power in government.
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI agree. I think that if he had finished the book in a way that provided closure, I probably would not have continued thinking about the book. In a way the ending was a disappointment, but it really made me think about the book as a whole.
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteIf Montag was killed by the mechanichal hound, what would that say about the future about this society? If there was a dramatic ending, then it would not match the rest of the book and would be unrealistic. Montag had to live, because if he of all people doesn't live, then society has won.
I agree with Eliza. I thought the ending was very appropriate because Montag was so upset and confused throughout most of the book. When he met the men in the forest, it seemed like Montag had an epiphany and realized what he wanted to believe in. He found his true opinion and belief. He didn't know what he wanted to do with his life and now he does.
ReplyDelete@Brooke
ReplyDeleteYes I agree Bradbury wants you to think about the book for the rest of your life so that if something like the situation in the book starts to happen in our own society we are thinking of how terrible it will become.
@Michael
ReplyDeleteWhat did you think about the hobos that Montag ran into in the forest? How long do you think they had been together?
@Michael~ I definitely agree- it wasn't very dynamic or climactic, but it left a very important impression on people-that this ending is possible and probable for us. If it was exciting and disconnected, we wouldn't really see parallels to our own life but because there were so many things that, with the right catalysts, could actually happen it left a more lasting impression.
ReplyDelete@Casey
ReplyDeleteThat's a great connection. I completely agree. It keeps the reader thinking, though it may aggravate them because there is no set ending and they are provoked to think of their own, they are still thinking about the story and that is what an author wants for their book. The more people that think about it, the more they will be willing to talk to others about it and others are going to want to know what that person is talking about so they too will read it and there will be a whole group of people that this continues to go through.
@Michael--I agree. Even though it wasn't exactly a good ending, it still encourages me to step up and challenge the system. I think because the city is destroyed, it helped the people realize what was wrong.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the book left the reader hanging, but not in a good way. It just ended! It's almost as if Bradbury was looking for a way out of this book. And I know, I know, Ray Bradbury was one of the "greatest authors of all time". I get it. But that doesn't mean that he didn't get tired of writing his own book...
ReplyDelete@Baergen and Brooke
ReplyDeleteI think Bradbury purposefully left the ending open so readers will think about what could possibly happen and leave us with thoughts of everything books give us.
@ Heidi
ReplyDeleteThe fact that the government took an innocent mans life just to keep the public happy was sad and disturbing to me.
@Julia
ReplyDeleteBut what if that was a point he was trying to get across? I'm not saying that is his point that society will always win, but you have to think that Clarisse died too. And society won there didn't it?
@Rick
ReplyDeleteWhat did you think about how they killed just a random guy to make people feel that they got Montag?
@Baergen:
ReplyDeleteI think it is good to leave an open ending, but a little more clousure would make me less confused. I think the ending was a bit weird.
@Toni
ReplyDeleteI'm not so sure about that. The government wasn't a major factor in the story, but society was. Perhaps society will change, but I don't think that the entire government will change.
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteI don't think that even though a whole city was destroyed, the people would realize everything was wrong with their lives. They're completely brainwashed, and it's near impossible to override that. So even if they feel a twinge of sadness inside of them for the loss of life, it's just another event on the TV, something to enjoy.
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you all think that the point of the scene with Montag being in that farm house (?) and looking at the girl as she went from room to room and would sit by the window? Who was he looking at?
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI felt exactly the same way about Clarisse ending. I know that she served her purpose and everything, but it just felt random and like he didn't put much thought into it. This ending was kind of the same way for me, even if it left me thinking.
@ class
ReplyDeleteHow do you think Mildred and Montag met? I knw that Montag remembers that it was in Chicago, but what happened there? Were they ever in love or was it an arranged marriage?
@Gabe
ReplyDeleteI did not like the ending of the book. I thought there would be another scene where Montag would fight the government or something wild like that, but it never happened. I think Montag will travel with his comrades and maybe eventually venture out on his own.
Nia
@Casey
ReplyDeleteif the government wasn't a major factor, then why was the book banned as an anti-government book? The government is society and society is the government.
@Colleen and @Michael I agree with you guys that the ending is definitely something to think about.
ReplyDelete@Arman I think they have been together for a long time because they seem to know each other really well. They all know what the other has memorized in terms of books. They also spend a lot of time together walking the railroad tracks so, you can think they since they don’t have TV they talk to each other a ton
ReplyDelete@Brooke:
ReplyDeleteDo you think that could have been Mildred? I'm not quite sure what the significance was.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteMany authors did this to their own books. But, i think this book was written with much more of a purpose than most other book. Bradbury wants you to be left thinking he doesn't want to set an opinion into your mind he wants to set a thought into your mind so you can draw your own opinions.
@Toni
ReplyDeleteI don't think it was an arranged mariiage. I think they were both young and thought they knew what love was. I don't think they really saw to the future of how they would be in 10 years.
-Kathryn
I love the way Bradbury describes Millie's demise "He saw her leaning toward the great shimmering walls of color and motion where the family prattled and chatted and said her name and smiled at her and said nothing of the bomb that was an inch, now a half inch, now a quarter inch from the top of the hotel..."(159. How dos this compeltely sum up Millie's character?
ReplyDelete@Toni~ I doubt it was an arranged marriage, but I think they probably felt about each other the way they do now. More or less indifferent but no one really cares that much about their spouses anyway.
ReplyDelete@Outer Circle
ReplyDeleteDid you think it was kind of wierd that Granger told Montag that he would remember the Bible verse eventually, but then a few minutes later, he remembers it? I thought it happened too soon. What do you think?
@ Casey
ReplyDeleteIf the main location of the government was hit by a bomb then a new government could very well come to power. I am not saying that that is definitely what happened or will happened but it is a strong possibility.
However, the ending is definitely thought-provoking, but.... It wasn't worth it. In the end, Montag didn't do anything that wouldn't have happened later in the bomb. He went through all this trouble just to do things that would have been done anyway, had he just waited a couple days.
ReplyDelete@Arman
ReplyDeleteI think they killed that random guy to keep their audiences engaged in the news like it is a TV show. It is also so people feel safe.
I think the city being bombed and completely wiped out at the end showed how Montag has a new beginning. He has removed everything from his past, and can now have a fresh start.
ReplyDelete-Rick Z
Lauren Tew
ReplyDelete@ Brooke
Mabey the girl that Montag had seen was Mildrid. She did leave him, that can be tramatic, and in a stressfull situation the mind makes us see things we wish we had.
@ class
ReplyDeleteWhen montag was floating along in the river, I thought possibly it was like him absolving himself of his sins, like a baptism. Or maybe because water is the opposite of fire. fire destroys, and water gives life, and that's why he never wanted to leave.
@Gabe I definitely get what you're saying about being left thinking.
ReplyDelete@MMoritz
ReplyDeleteI think this sums up her character because she is so totally oblivious and ignorant of the real world and even at her end the thing she cares about most are her parlor walls.
@Kathryn:
ReplyDeleteAre you sure they didn't know what love was? I think Montag might have. He did watch that girl when he was on the farm. Do you think he loved her? Do you think that before Mildred became addicted to technology, he could have loved her?
@Moritz
ReplyDeleteI also loved the way that he did this. This completely sums up Mildred's character because even when she was about to die, she was watching her 'Family' until the end and was completely clueless to the outside world. She was only concerned as to what was going on with the 'Family,' a fake people, not the people that actually exist in the world.
@Class
ReplyDeleteAs mentioned in the inner circle, what do you think about Montag suddenly remembering where he Mildred met? Does he feel something for her now that she is facing death?
@Moritz
ReplyDeleteI think that shows Millie's character because it describes how much she loved her "family". Some people say to live every moment like it was your last, and that isn't at all what Millie was doing. But if it was how she lived, would much change?
-Kathryn
@moritz
ReplyDeleteI think that it implies that Millie is still unaware of her surroundings and that she is so caught up in her "family" that she does not care what else happens outside of her own life. She is still self centered and I feel like the books did not have any influence on her as if she was ignorant about the outside world.
Nia
@Baergen Completely. Clarisse seemed so random. I'm not sure it was pointless, but it was definitely kind of sub-par. She wasn't the catalyst that she needed to be. Montag's reaction was quite unrealistic and uncalled for, because Clarisse wasn't *that* important to the story.
ReplyDelete@Reid
ReplyDeleteRight, but they just killed a guy that was just walking around. He didn't even have books with him and they weren't searching his house for books. By society's definition, he was normal.
@Toni--In my opinion, I think that Mildred and Montag got married just to get married. Like Mildred's friends were saying that they have had multiple husbands, it doesn't seem like they care about *him.* It is more just about saying that they have one, and providing something to do.
ReplyDelete@Arman - The killing of the innocent man is haunting, but we was a pedestrian. He was considered someone "unusual", so the TV workers figured he was okay to be killed. After all, there were millions of peopole watching on TV they had to please.
ReplyDelete-Rick Z
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteMillie's character in general doesn't even seem like a human being. She is not intellectual or emotional. I think this quote really describes how little of a person she really is.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteYes Bradbury may have gotten tired of writting this book but he was clever about how he ended it so that he didn't implant only one opinion into your mind.
@Kathryn:
ReplyDeleteI think that Millie has no grip on reality, and probably thinks that she is living.
@Class:
Do you think that anyone in the society had a grip on reality?
@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteThey were seeming to make it all into a playing game. Even when they had everyone open their doors, the government was still toying with all of the people and making them all play this huge game out of it. They didn't show the seriousness of the situation that would have been shown today. They government also were seeming to make an example of Montag even though they didn't actually make Montag the example in the end. It's disgusting that they killed the innocent man that was just walking along the street,
@Toni
ReplyDeleteI totally agree. I thought that was very sad and frusterating. However, I think that happens in a way today. I know people who would do anything to keep up their reputation. They do and say things all the time that make them look good, but they are lies. I think this is what they are doing here. They have too keep up the hound's reputation of him finding and killing every victim it is assigned. They have to do that to keep everyone afraid so that no one else will want to try to rebel.
@Casey
ReplyDeleteI don't think Montag feels any love towards Mildred. I think he regrets how they spent the last 10 years together and somehow he thought if he could remember where they met, then somewhere along the line, he woulld know they loved each other.
-Kathryn
@ Heidi
ReplyDeleteI agree with your idea of why Montag was in the water and why he didn't want to leave, in some situations water is seen as relief and life. He wants to start new, so this could be his way of becomeing a new person
-Lauren T.
@ mrs. Moritz
ReplyDeleteIt shows how oblivious Millie was, and how self-absorbed and entertainment-minded. She was a representative of the normal person. By describing millie's demise, he described the whole city's, only it was more of an impact for us, as there was a personal connection.
@Heidi
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree with you. I think the river represented peace, the oposite of fire. It was calm releif after the chaos he left behind.
@Inner circle
ReplyDeleteThey gave up just to keep the news like an action show not actual news just to keep people having 'fun'.
@Heidi~ That is so true! I definitely agree that water gives life and fire brings death-and also that fire causes ash and water is a cleanser. For example, a connection from Macbeth-when Macbeth says that all the water in the ocean could not cleanse the blood off his hands. Water is a way to become clean both physically, mentally and emotionally.
ReplyDelete@EllyJ
ReplyDeleteI think that it was too early to be able to remember. When I try to remember something, it usually takes me days, but I also think that traumatic experiences can cause people to remember quicker than they would under normal circumstances.
Nia
@Class
ReplyDeleteSince the innocent man was killed, what if he had a family? What is the government going to tell them when he doesn't come back home that night?
@katie
ReplyDeleteThe one person I think had a grip on reality was Clarrise. She was the only one that looked at nature and the beauty of it, instead of speeding by it.
-Kathryn
@Class:
ReplyDeleteHow is the definition of fun in the book different from how we think of fun today?
@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteThe government new the person wasn't Montag but they still programmed it to kill that pedestrian just to end the chase.
@Elli S.
ReplyDeleteThat is a good point. No one really cares about there spouses in this society.
@Elly J
I don't think that it was odd the Granger said that Montag would remember it then he did. If something emotional happens to you and it has a great impact on your life you can remember anything.
I'm sad that people are disappointed with the ending. I think that when Bradbury says "Montag began walking and after a moment found that others had fallen in behind him, going north. Her was surprised, and moved aside to let Granger pass, but Granger looked at him and nodded him on. Montag went ahead," (164) he is showing us that Montag is now the leader he is supposed to be and he will lead this new community towards greater things. I think it is a really inspirational ending.
ReplyDelete@Rick
ReplyDeleteMontag walked home from work and he had done that for years and no one thought anything of it. This guy could have been doing anything and really they have no reason to kill every pedestrian they see because people still can walk. What I'm saying is that we are not sure of what that guy was doing and he could have very well been a guy going to his job to put food on the table.
@Arman - Yes, but he was walking late at night. Likely just to go for a casual walk, not to get home or go to work. He didn't have a purpose, which was unusual in this story
ReplyDelete-Rick Z
@Katie
ReplyDeleteI think that in this book, people were so selfish and desensitesed that, even if the person was a rebel, there really was no grip on reality.
-Lauren T.
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI agree. He must have tried to find some excuse for their marraige. If he could remember why he loved her, then there had to be something there.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI agree completely. I just feel that some parts of this book just didn't really go together. I really felt that for the ending to be better, Clarisse should have stayed in the story for at least a little longer. I think that once Clarisse left, I knew the book wouldn't be what I wanted it to be. She needed to do more to be the wonderful, amazing character everything thought she was, and that was proven correct in the ending of the book.
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI think the government will tell that man's family that he was not a law abiding citizen and he was a disgrace and danger to the society.
@Kathryn:
ReplyDeleteI think Montag also got a grip on reality towards the end.
@Katie
ReplyDeleteFun today seems to be heading towards the way that fun is in the book. But today we seem to still have more fun getting out and playing a sport for example. I know that I would rather go out and play basketball with friends instead of sitting inside staring at a screen rotting away my brain as the society around me decides that is what we should all think is more fun. That we should all just stay inside thinking what they all want us to think.
@Katie~ I think that in the book fun is defined by what can bring the most thrill right now. For example, even when they're watching the parlor, all the shows are "5 minute romance" or a short nonsensical show. I think that the definition of fun is different as well as time and boredom-even "fun" things become boring after awhile.
ReplyDelete@ class
ReplyDeleteif you read the afterword by Bradbury, he talks about why Clarrise was taken out. He mentions that he thinks that she should have come back, but he won't change the story. I don't think she would have done much had she come back.
-Kathryn
@Lauren:
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kathryn. I really do think that Clarisse had a grip on reality. She could think, where all the other people didn't know how.
Inner circle-talk about the chase. Was that realistic? What about the scapegoat who was supposedly Montag? What does the river represent?
ReplyDelete@Rick
ReplyDeleteI actually think that it is quite normal do do things aimlessly because they are all simple minded, brain-washed people.
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteI think it represetns Mildred's personality really well. She is so obsessed with her "family" and television that she doesn't notice anything else. I think that scene was almost funny because it shows she is so stupid that a bomb could be that close to her, yet she doesn't notice.
@Katie
ReplyDeleteI think that Beatty had some sort of a grip on reality because he seemed to know his literature well, but I think that everyone else was so absorbed with their TVs that they did not realize reality. I think the only other people who could have a sense of reality are those who were dedicated to books before the government banned all reading of books.
-Nia
@MMortitz
ReplyDeleteYes I agree with you. I think the ending is very clever because it doesn't conclude every single little strand but it doesn't have to. It was a great ending because its inspirational in a way, people were following their hearts instead of the mob. Instead of mob mentality they are finally able to follow a leader who may bring free thought back.
@mmoritz
ReplyDeleteI suppose it would be inspiring. But unfortunately, I didn't get the meaning out of those words when I read it. There are a lot of books that we find to have a "drop off" ending, but I think that we should eally start to look for a deeper meaning in all of them.
@MMoritz
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. I think I may be seeing the ending differently because this is the second time I have read the book. People see this as a disappointing ending, a cliffhanger, but I think it is a powerful ending. I don't think that just because Bradbury does not specifically tell us what happens next does not make it a bad ending. I agree that it is an inspirational ending, and people can take it as they want and hopefully be braver to stand up for what they believe in.
@ Katie
ReplyDeleteAlthough, I have to agree with Kathryn also. Clarisse definitly had a grip on reality, but it was so extreeme it basicly got her killed. She may have had seen things as they were, but she wasnt observante enough to see that people were going to hurt her if she didnt seem "normal."
-Lauren T.
@Baergen Exactly. It needed something to bridge that gap. It was sort of like, "random girl=insane rebellion?" Okay...
ReplyDelete@ Brooke
ReplyDeleteI don't think that the government will tell the innocent man's family that he isn't coming home that night. I think they will just let it go, let that mans family figure out what happened on their own. But if they do tell his family they might just say that he was hit by a car. Just like Montag almost was when he was running from the police before the hound was let loose.
@Baergen~ I agree that Clarisse should have been in the book longer but not necessarily the entire book. I just think that she dropped off too early and Montag had to go hunt down Faber before he could actually change anything, so Faber was almost Montag's replacement for Clarisse.
ReplyDeleteOne quote I thought was interesting was on page 150: "Professor West here did quite a bit for ethics, an ancient study now..." Ethics? an ancient study? Maybe that's why the innocent pedestrian was killed
ReplyDelete-Rick Z
@Elli:
ReplyDeleteDo you think that that could ever entertain us? I don't know about you, but my entertainment is excersize. I don't know if our society today could sit in front of the t.v. all day every day. Most people, at least.
When Montag was walking along the tracks and thinking of Clarisse, I think it was Bradbury's way of showing that Montag was following Clarisse's path, picking up where she left off. And then one of the hobos was talking about his grandpa and when he died, a piece of him stayed with him. And it makes me think how when we leave this earth, there will be someone to replace us, but also to carry on our legacy.
ReplyDelete@Elli
ReplyDeleteI agree that "fun" even today is built on things that are quick and have the illusion of fun. However, many of the things people think are fun don't benefit them at all, quite the opposite. It's difficult for people to find something that is fun to them, but is better in the long run.
-Kathryn
I believe that Millie was killed off because it proved that she had done something wrong to harm Montag and it gave Montag more of a reason to go back in to town and make changes because his wife was dead there and gave him a reason to go back. He was really affected by the fact of her leaving him and her dying.
ReplyDelete@Gabe Well, I suppose it *was* thought provoking... We are sitting here talking about it, aren't we? :)
ReplyDelete@Lauren:
ReplyDeleteWhat is normal? Normal is murderous, for teenagers, and I can't see Clarisse acting like that.
@Rick The idea of "ethics" and what is "ethical" is interesting. Ethics will always exist, however I strongly believe that their "ethics" are quite different than our "ethics".
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteOn page 158, it says, "And the war began and ended in that instant." What are your thoughts?
-Kathryn
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteWould you have gone and opened your door?
@Julia S.--I think that the ending to this novel was indeed inspirational as well as a cliffhanger. I think that because it is a cliffhanger it is inspiring because I am able to interpret what I want in the book, and make certain things meaningful to me.
ReplyDelete@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteI think the river represents everyone else. It just goes with the flow and doesn't have move power individually but in mass it is overwhelming.
@Class
ReplyDeleteI think Joe has a good point that in our society very few people would actually open their door if the government told them to, and also, few people would have the tv on at that exact moment to hear that.
@katie
ReplyDeleteI do not think that we can define normal. I think that people just wanted Clarisse do act like everyone else was acting like.
-Nia
@ Elli
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Katie. Tv and the internet may be really interesting, but no matter how lazy a person may be, they have to do something other than that. Like cooking or shoping, talking to friends, working. No one has the luxury to just sit around.
-Lauren T.
@ Class
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Montag's new goal at the end of the book is to change the way things work or just to have a new beggining for himself?
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteIt seems to be based upon the rest of society that Clarisse was talking about. No one stops and just watches what they are speeding past. Everything starts quickly, goes quickly, ends quickly. There's no "slow motion" in this society it seems.
@Class it was obviously some kind of atomic/nuclear bomb that completely destroyed the city, yet Montag, Granger, and the other men are somewhat unfazed. Has nuclear warfare become so prominent in their society that they are not surprised by it anymore? Am I the only one worried our own society will end up like that?
ReplyDelete@Inner circle
ReplyDeleteIf people were to see what the government was like and not so focused on their walls they would understand what Montag did and be more in agreement.
@Katie~ Yes, I definitely think that watching tv would entertain 90% of America...it already does.
ReplyDelete@Kathryn~ I agree that even now things that are faster, quicker, and have more thrill are more entertaining (Exhibit A: rollercoasters). But I think when the book takes place, they don't even have that "hands on" aspect. They probably have virtual rollercoasters and virtual things that are faster and more "fun".
@Class
ReplyDeleteDo you think Montag and Fabor will ever see each other again? If so, what do you think will happen? Do you think Fabor will join Montag and his group?
@Katie
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean "normal is murderous"? I don't think anyone has a clear view of normal. People now adays think normal means fitting in and doing all of the steriotypical things in life. However, no one is exactly the same as anyone else. Normal to me is being your own self and standing out and being unique. The worst insult to me is being told I fit in because I don't want to be like everyone else.
-Kathryn
@ Katie
ReplyDeleteI know that I could not sit in front of a TV all day, everyday.
@Reid:
ReplyDeleteGoing with the river symbolism; It has no individual brain and lives for fun. It can fairly easily be stopped or made to switch directions but is always headed downhill.
@Kathryn it is showing that the bomb was it. That was the war. It was dropped, it exploded, and whoever dropped it won. There was build-up, obviously, but the actual *war* was considered just the bombing.
ReplyDelete@Casey
ReplyDeleteI think Montag is just starting to enjoy his new found life. He might try to change society again later on, but I think right now he just wants to bask in his new way of living.
-Nia
@Heidi--I disagree that when we die, someone replaces us. I agree that someone will carry on our legacy, but I think it is quite a statement to say that someone is replaced. If you think of a family where perhaps the father died, yes there may be a new husband/dad in place later, but they are never really *replaced.*
ReplyDelete@ Kathryn
ReplyDeleteNo one is normal. Everyone has there own little quirks that make them unique.
@class
ReplyDeleteDo any of the characters speak to you? Do you connect with any of them?
-Kathryn
@Moritz I don’t see the ending as inspirational, I see it more as a warning to society. I don’t really see the book as a story, with a beginning, middle, and end; I see it more as a warning to society. He is showing us what society will become if we stop thinking and doing. He is encouraging the reader to challenge the system; Bradbury doesn’t want us to take things at face value but rather, to dig deeper and think about what is actually going on.
ReplyDelete@MMoritz
ReplyDeleteI agree with the quote you said and how it is inspirational. I understand your point of view and everyone else who really liked the ending. Its not that I am disappointed in the ending, I am more disappointed in the book in general.
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ReplyDelete@ Katie
ReplyDeleteClarisse could have tried not ot bring a lot of attention to herself is what I mean. She doesn't have to be murdurous, she just needed to use some common sense and try to be unsensitive around people at school. It's okay to be smart and nice at home, but not in public where she could easily be killed for her oppinions.
-Lauren T.
@Kathryn:
ReplyDeleteWhat I meant is that a normal teenager for them is insane, shooting people and trying to run people over, just for fun. Clarisse, from what we saw of her, would never do that. She would never be "normal."
@Class
ReplyDeleteMrs. Moritz's quote was great. You guys should think about it from Bradbury's point of view, why would he choose to end the book in the manor that he did. if he had done a time lapse and then showed how the world would have turned out would we still be talking about it? would you even like the writing as much or would you feel like there was a forced thought. I think he chose a briliant way to end the book because it made it look and seem like rebelling against a harsh and opressive government might actaully work out.
@Toni, it's hard to imagine sitting in front of the TV all day now, (Jersey Shore marathon? No thanks) but what do you think is on TV in Montag's society (besides the families) that is so enticing?
ReplyDelete@Elly J
ReplyDeleteI think that Faber is already connected to the "gang" of professors and readers because he fits that description and he knows some people that still do things with books and such, and they must have connections to them.
@Toni, @Kathryn, @Lauren and @Katie~
ReplyDeleteI wasn't implying that you would watch TV all day every day- I meant that people spend an inordinate amount of time in front of the TV nowadays (think about when you're home sick from school- you watch tv for 5 or 7 hours sometimes) that we will quickly head in that direction.
@Elly - I would love to have Montag meet back up with Faber, Faber belongs in that group Montag met in the forest. That's one of the things Bradbury leaves for us to wonder about. However, with the atomic war, I'm saddened that the odds are slim.
ReplyDelete-Rick Z
@class
ReplyDeleteDo you think any other city was bmbed? Why was Montag's city bombed? It must have been a fairly important city in order to get attention from the enemy.
-Kathryn
@Michael--Inspiring response. :)
ReplyDelete@ Elli
ReplyDeleteI agree. I think that roller coasters is an experience that a lot of people love today. But in the book, they lack that real life experience. Instead, they just watch TV and sort of disconnect themselves from the world.
@Lauren:
ReplyDeleteI thought that she didn't go to school, yet she was killed. Accident or otherwise.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't seem to be and atomic or nuclear warfare. They are not that far from the city and very large bombs can be very powerful or damaging. It think war isn't very prominent in that society they might just live in a world with tons of tension and have been prepared for this kind of world. I think they are just so shocked by the bomb that they don't know what to do. I don't think our society will end up like this. Countries understand that war doesn't provide more gains than you loose. Bombs to day are very small they are used to be precise and only destroy one target not a city.
Right and wrong are relative. We talk about how this society is so bad, on a comparison to our own ethical and moral views. How we think influences the way we view the book! For all we know they're society is right! But there is no such thing as life being in black and white, it's all a muddled gray area. And only because Bradbury was the puppet master to montag, was montag able to think like us.
ReplyDeleteOn page 165 it states, "And when it came his turn, what could he say, what could he offer on a day like this, to make the trip a little easier? To everything there is a season. Yes. A time to break down and a time to build up. Yes. A time ti keep silence, and a time to speak. Yes, all that. But what else. What else? Something, something..." What do you think the significance of what Montag is saying? What do you think that he is meaning by all of this?
ReplyDelete@inner circle
ReplyDeleteI agree with Hailey. I don't really like Granger. If he is already wanted and on the run, why doesn't he keep the books? He could almost be an undercover spy in my view.
-Kathryn
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteAbout the television, I think that what is on television is a way to escape from the society they are in. Today, I feel like people have so much going on with families and other things in their lives, but in the society of Fahrenheit, they really have nothing to do. They don't have families that they have to take care of, or time consuming jobs. That is why they can sit and watch television all day.
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteI think that Granger is very smart to memorize the books. But the point of books is not the books themselves and the words within. It's the lesson behind them that really matters.
@ Katie
ReplyDeleteYes, she didn't go to school, but she saw the people who went there and walked around town. She was killed, maybe it was an accident or maybe it was someone who didn't like her speaking her mind in public.
-Lauren T.
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI don't really connect to any of the characters, but I really liked Montag's realization at the end of the book. I thought that he suddenly saw the world in a whole new way. I loved how happy he suddenly became.
@Baergen
ReplyDeleteI have to disagree with you about how these people in the society have nothing to do. I think that they could have plenty to do, but they just choose to have nothing to do. The society may have gotten so stressed at a point that everyone just gave up and started having 'fun.'
@Heidi
ReplyDeleteI disagree. I think in any society there is some black and white, not just grey. For example, in our day, it is wrong to murder, no matter the cause. And in Fahrenheit 451 it is wrong to read books.
-Kathryn
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI think that the shows that Mildred is watching are not to different from the things that people are watching today. They are just interactive.
@Class:
ReplyDeleteWhat would you do if you were Clarisse in that society? Would you run and hide, try to act "Normal"? Or would you fight where society is going? Try to slow the downhill spiral?
Do you think Bradbury might have written this book in a contraversial way so that people will pay even more attention to it if he had written it in a different way. He was showing the irony of our culture today, we challenge the government but if its a little to much the government rips it out of our hands.
ReplyDeleteI was surprised that on page 159 Montag tried to cry out to Mildred to tell her to get away, don't be killed by the bombing. He really cared about her. We talked a lot about how those two don't really care about each other, But Montag felt pity for her, and also remembered a good memory of where he met her.
ReplyDelete-Rick Z
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ReplyDelete@EllyJ~
ReplyDeleteI agree, and I think throughout a majority of the book Montag was impulsive. Near the end he begins to think through his actions a lot more with his epiphany and it starts him down this whole new path (like what Moritz is saying right now).
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI really didn't connect with any of the characters, which for me, is a very important part of a book. I usually do not like books which have no characters I can relate to. It makes the book a lot less realistic to me, maybe that is why I have mixed feelings towards this book.
@Lauren/Class:
ReplyDeleteDo you think that the teenagers represent anything? Was Bradbury using them as a metaphore for something bigger, maybe?
@Ellen~ LOVE that quote. I think it puts the book in perspective perfectly.
ReplyDelete@MMoritz I don't really get the inspirational aspect of it. It is interesting, I suppose, but I feel that Montag fell in step with these men because he would be completely alone if he didn't. He learned on this journey, sure, but he also spend most of his time thinking instead of acting. "Vision without action is merely a dream. Action without vision just passes time. Vision with action can change the world.”-Joel Barker. Montag had some great thoughts about how the world should be, but he rarely acted on them, and when he did, he did so without thinking it through, which just ended up hurting him rather than helping. I find it impressive that he had the courage to think against the government, but I don't think it's inspirational because he didn't *act* as much against the government.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@class
ReplyDeleteI really like what Moritz said. I think the other cast aways had no real purpose or motivation to keep going, but when Montag appeared, they suddenly had a great new example of what to fight for.
-Kathryn
@inner circle
ReplyDeleteThroughout the book, peoople keep talking about the books and the words and the paper and physical features. The only point where they talk about the meaning is where they are talking about how confusing it is. I wish that Bradbury had talked about the lessons within a little more.
@Gabe
ReplyDeleteI don't think this book could have been written in a less controversial way. It wouldn't have the same message.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteBut you have to remember that it takes a plan to act if you really want something done. Yes he is thinking a lot more than he is acting, but you have to think before you act. If you were in his situation would you just run around telling everyone that they are wrong to think that books are wrong to read? Or would you really think things through and come up with something that would actually impact society? Running around telling everyone that they are wrong would do nothing. He isn't yet at the stage in which he is going to act.
Hey @Elli...... Thanks. :)I think it goes well with the book too.
ReplyDelete@Katie
ReplyDeleteI think the teenagers were exactly what he said they were. Montag/Bradbury explained it perfectly, but I don't think they symbolize anything. They were just teenagers following society.
@ Katie
ReplyDeleteI do think that teenagers represent something. Teenagers in this situation were cold hearted killers, maybe it was to show that if things don't stop soon that everyone is going to end up killing each other anyway. Whats your oppinion?
-Lauren T.
@ Mortitz
ReplyDeleteI agree that Montag taking the lead at the end of the book is the most powerful part of the book. I thought it was interesting that Montag wasn't sure if he should take the lead or if Granger would be mad.
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you thing that Montag and the guys will do now? Do you think they will go on to make a monumental change?
@ Rick
ReplyDeleteI too found this strange. But in the face of death, or seeing your loved one's oncoming death, it can strike up some deeply buried feelings. That, or Montag wanted to love Millie, which is understandable because he lived with her for so long, so much that he actual did. He "tricked" himself, in a way, into loving her, because it might've destroyed him and everything he stood for if he didn't.
@Class
ReplyDeleteI agree with Moritz. They all follow him because he is so different know than he used to be. He changed from a person of destruction to a person who's ultimate goal is to preserve what he destroyed. It shows a mental and moral gain that the other men respect and admire. The want to aspire to his status of morality. That anyone can achieve but need to be a special figure to do so. They have to notice the faults of government and the power of books that individualize themselves. The admire Montag as a person of great achievements.
@Ellen--I think this part of the book shows that he will act upon his ideas. He finally feels the support to act on his thoughts. Maybe he is a coward because he wasn't brave enough to act on his own, but I believe that if the book were to continue, we would see great things from Montag.
ReplyDelete@Baergen--I feel the same way. I think that in order for a book to be realistic, readers need to be able to relate. The characters in this novel had so much depth (or so little) that I couldn't find a way to put myself in their shoes. I wasn't able to feel what they feel. Therefore, I don't think I was able to get the real meaning to the novel.
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteHe didn't act on his thoughts because he had no chance yet. The government had all the power at the moment and he himself couldn't do anything alone. He had to take time gather himself and gather others so that they could rebel in a succesfull way.
@Brooke If not now, then when? He never seemed that motivated to actually *do* something. He would act in short outbursts, which never got him anywhere.
ReplyDelete@Katie
ReplyDeleteThe teenagers were probably just showing how the adults society had influenced them and how differently they act in the book compared to how they act in reality outside the book. That if something happens to grow us into this society then our kids will just be following in our footsteps and everything will just become worse and worse without another's guidance.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. I think that Montag somewhat wanted to be the hero who changes the society forever, but he just fell short. For me, he just seemed like an impulsive character who was stuck in the middle of doing what was thought to be correct, and actually rebelling. Once he started to "rebel" though, he couldn't stop. I don't think that it was really meaningful the way he lead all the other people, because it didn't really fit with the story. He just didn't have anywhere else to go.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI absolutely agree. Montag is the main character, but I don't find him to be truly inspirational. He's afraid of the hound, the government, and the people. to be a leader, he would have to do more than just float down a river and think.
@Arman
ReplyDeleteI think that there will be a gradual change. They are putting ideas into people's heads, but I think it will be a while until books stop being burned.
@Lauren
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting perspective. Maybe it's like Lord of the Flies, where they chose sides and it ended with "join us or die", which is just what hapened.
-Kathryn
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteThat is what is left to think about after you have finished the book.
@Lauren:
ReplyDeleteThanks for asking! :) I think that teenagers represent a new generation, and any changes in society. Therefore, to maintain the illusion of entertainment, I think the society is going to turn to murder.
I liked this book. :)
ReplyDelete@ CLASS
ReplyDeletewhy do you think that Bradbury ended the book so suddenly, do you think there was more to be said or do you think that the book was really over?
@KATHRYN
I dont think that having clarissa come back would have helped the story at all. I the fact that she died opened up Montags eyes to the fact that the government can do some pretty nasty things including kill a 17 year old girld who was diffrent.
@ Class do you think that the purpose of the book was to motivate change? If our whole disscussion point throughout the year is ws does it take to motivate change can we even say the thing that it taes to motivate change is motivating change. If Ray Bradbury didnt write this book then people might not think about government corruptions or problems in society. This book motivates change because in it there a stories and words that show change happining.