What do you think is significance of the irony in the book (i.e. The Ministry of Love is all about war, the Ministry of Truth changes documents and makes things up so people don't know the real truth, etc.)?
@Drew- I'm thinking maybe that it's so ironic because that's how Orwell sees the world he lives in or THINKS the world will be like in 1984. Maybe he's just trying to make a point.
@Maggie, I think that the government is so controlling because they are terrified of losing power (whoever "they" is). It is an interesting thought, however, as to who exactly the government is. But whoever they are, they want to remain in power for as long as possible. Therefore the Thought Police patrol peoples thoughts to hunt out individuals who they think might rebel.
@Maggie- I think the Thought Police are in this book for the same reason the government was so controlling in Farenheit 451...anyone who has any opposition to the established government is considered a threat that needs to be wiped out.
I agree that this book has a lot of irony in it. Perhaps Orwell was trying to suggest that in 1984, life may be so mixed up and confusing that love will no longer exist, and truth will no longer be guraunteed.
I think all the agencies pretty much sums up life today. They are just a little over exaggerate some aspects. Today we do have people that look into our everyday lives and that can intervene if they feel it's needed.
@Maggie I think the thought police is kind of a way to make everyone the same. It's like in the short story, Harison Bergeron, they were trying to make everyone equal (and the government goes way too far to do it). I think that the government is incredibly controlling because they believe if everyone is different, there will be more thoughts against the government and more fighting/rebellion.
Ignorance is blissful because so things people just dont want to know, but I don't know how war is peace. Also, is this society just one country or is this most of the world?
This book is very similar to Fahrenheit 451 because of the way the government is. They are so controlling and almost force the people to be a certain way.
@Maggie I think it is really creepy. The thought of being watched on video by the government at all times really scares me. Privacy is something that everyone needs in their lives. However, this method also makes sense to me, because if someone is going to rebel or do something bad, they are going to do it privately or when no one is looking. This way, people don't have privacy, therefore, they can't do anything bad without getting caught.
@Ellen--I agree that is an interesting concept. It is sort of funny to me how they make themselves seem so powerful, and act very powerful, but on the inside they know that their power can easily be shut down.
@Casey I completely agree. In today's society, they sound insane because the words are complete opposites. However, I think these people have been pretty closed to brainwashed. It's difficult to comprehend, but it is definitely an odd phenomenon.
@Julie- To me, when they say "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength", the government is trying to make these horrible things like slavery and peace sound desirable because they are synonymous, in their world, with war and freedom. I think also that the plan is to keep the world in so much struggle and keep them so occupied in war that there is no TIME for opposition. But, of course, if there is any opposition, they have the Thought Police in place. But I think the main goal of that 'slogan' is to make sure that the world is always occupied in war because they think it will bring them peace, and always being slaves to gain freedom and being ignorant to the problems so that they may have strength.
@Ellen I agree. Its like in Farenheit, they only are controlling for their own benefit. They want to be completely in control and things like thouhts may get in the way of them having that. Too many things could go wrong if people had complete control of their thoughts.
@Gabe I think to an extent this is like today, but not as harsh as they make it seem. Today people only intervene if there is a purpose to, the the officials in 1984 watch and hear every movement.
I think the significance of the slogan is that the government is convincing the people that war is good, no one should be free, and and all people should be ignorant. Winston is different from the other characters in the book because he is tired of the war, wants freedom, and is very thoughtful and not ignorant.
@innercircle Goldstein isn't supposed to be a major character. Instead, he is supposed to represent an uprising against the government. It's not about him, it's about the revolution.
@class- On page 30 in my book, Winston is thinking about his mother in his dream. He says, "Tragedy, he perceived, belonged to the ancient time, to a time when there were still privacy, love, friendship, and when the members of a family stood by one another without needing to know the reason." What do you guys perceive that as? What do you think it's supposed to symbolize in the government/society?
@Willie~ I don't think Big Brother is one singular person, but more a compilation of all the ways the government has control over them. Instead of Big Brother being a person, "he" is more of a group or party, as well as a machine (like the telescreen).
I think it's possible the some of the slogans don't necessarily mean much in particular, but a simply used the brainwash the people into believing that the way they live is how things ought to be.
@Class The telescreen reminds me of the chip in people's ear in Harrison Bergeron. It is constant monitoring from the government and I think the Inner Circle is correct that it just brainwashes people.
@Eliza That's an interesting point. The book was written just after World War II, so I think Orwell was incorporating the hate towards the Jews in this book. It was a politcal commentary of what was going on so I believe that Orwell is subtly incorporating a lot of these aspects.
@Willie- I don't think Big Brother is a single person, either. I think that they maybe make it out so that people think he is one person to maybe make the government seem more powerful. I would think our government was much more powerful if I thought that only ONE person ran it, rather than a whole group.
@class What I'm wondering is, do the people really know what's going on in the world? All they know is that there is a war going on, and that the government keeps winning. For all we know, the government could be deciding to cut down on a certain supplies to make it convincing.
@Baergen--I agree that they are controlling for their own benefit, but in today's society we have complete control of our thoughts, but it doesn't seem like it is incredibly corrupt. Yes, we do have problems, but it is like that in any society. I don't really think that our thoughts have put us in extreme corruption.
@Colleen- I think the significance of the quote on the Ministry of Truth building is that now in our society, we would never allow that. People are too educated to let people get away with saying stuff like that. But in that society, everyone is okay with it and they just let it happen.
I think it's odd that more people haven't tried to rebel against the government. If a camera was always watching me I probably would think about doing something to stop it. This book might turn out like Fahrenheit 451 where it takes one person to start a rebellion.
@Toni I don't think so, but you never know. I'm more curious about O'Brien. Do you think Winston will approach him, and do you think he shares the same ideas?
@Michael I thought Newspeak was a very bad thing. With Newspeak, they are trying to brainwash the people even further than they already are. When you don't have as may words to speak and think with, you can't think or say anything very complicated. I also think that Newspeak makes the people more like robots. Robots do what they are told, are there for a purpose, and, when no longer needed, they are destroyed. This is exactly what the people of this time are like. Newspeak is just another way to make the people like robots and control their lives.
The violence with the kids reminds me of the virtual world that kids surround themselves in today with their obsession of war games and even playing airsoft or paintball
I think that Big Brother is completely power crazed. If he truly wanted the best for his people, he would spend less time vaporizing and killing people and more time making the society a better place. Big Brother forces information into the minds of citizens using the telescreeen. He uses thought police to ensure that the thoughts of citizens are pure. BB has complete power of the people.
@Drew I think the irony of the different ministries is a mechanism to show how the government has complete control over the people. The people don’t even second guess that the Ministry of Peace is all about war and that the Ministry of Truth makes up false stories; they are completely brainwashed by Big Brother.
As Rick was saying in the inner circle, the brainwashing is also done through the hate. Everyone was shouting "B...B!" uncontrollably. This is an effective way to make big brother seem much better than the revolution, holding his governmental power.
@Julia- I agree with you about the similarity between Harrison Bergeron. But, I'm not sure if I see the telescreen as brainwashing yet. They are, yes, constantly broadcasting, but they aren't saying anything out loud to make them think the government is great. They are just forcing them to do stuff like workout and stretch, not necessarily feeding them information yet.
@ Eliza I think that it is possible the Orwell was makeing a reference to the holocaust. The book was written around that time, and the fact the the charictor is being critisized for being Jewish shows alot of the same mind sets that the Germans had dureing World War II.
@Hailey I was really struck by the part about when family members used to stand by each other without needing a reason. It used to be that a family was a family. No matter what, they were in it together. Now (and in 1984, I'm guessing) family is a little more complicated. There are things that I could tell my parents and they would never forgive me. There are things out there that could very easily tear us apart. Family is fragile now. In 1984, I think this idea has been taken to the extreme and family has become so fragile that it almost doesn't exist.
@ inner circle The kids have kind of the same mentality as kids today. Depending on how a child is given information, they believe certain things. For example, our textbooks today could be giving us completely false information. We have no idea. How could we possibly know?
I don't think Big Brother is a person. The government is using Big Brother as a scare tactic. It could be nothing at all just figurative name to scare people.
I don't think that Winston will approach O'Brien because it is a huge risk. What happens if O'Brien is a thought police agent? What if that caused Winston to be killed?
@Class~ What do you think of the little group that the government doesn't care about? I remember him saying that there was one little group but I forget what it was called.
@ Inner Circle Big Brother sounds protective and supportive. It makes you feel like you are safe and feel no fear. Its a great technique for the leader to use to keep his people from rebelling.
@class- This book reminds me a TON of Farenheit 451. It's the same....not plot, but idea. The government is all powerful and people are SO afraid they won't do anything about it. I also think that Winston will do something to rebel just like Montag did.
@Hailey- I think that the quote means that the government, and the advances in technology have drawn people apart. I think that maybe, if from a very young age we were taught that our first duty was to the Party, we would probably be willing to betray our families as well. Right now, people are often taught that their first duty is to our families.
@Hailey I think that the quote from the book that you gave us symbolizes how no one really has their own emotions anymore. They just feel frustration. The government has now made sure that no one has their own passionate feelings. There is no love or anything like that. The quote is just showing how oppressive that government is.
I think people probably have tried to rebel against the government, but they have been vaporized or killed. Big Brother wants a society where everyone thinks what he wants them to think, so if someone had thoughts or beliefs that contradicted his, Big Brother would want them gone.
@Joe people can't rebel because if they even think of rebelling the Thought Police will come after them. There is not space to rebel. Winston put his thoughts in a journal and now he is terrified that he will be caught by the police.
In all of the books we've read this semester, there is a government of somesort. However, its not really known. We don't really know exactly what it is and who's controling it.
@Reid- I'm not sure why the hangings are so popular. Maybe supporters of Big Brother believe it's a show of power and they'd like to support Big Brother that way. I'm sure they'd have to be gruesome!
@Ellen I think that the government has installed a fool proof system because they made strict rules, spy on the people through televisions, and make daily announcements that seem to hypnotize the people. I think the people are too afraid to rebel against the government because the government has built a reputation and proved their power by vaporizing people, or hanging them.
@Willie Everyone is obsessed with war because they are taught that war equals peace. They think war will help the most and is the most important thing.
@Willie I think that people are so obsessed with war because I think that everyone wants to have the most power and everyone wants to win and to be right. I think people will go to war until they win.
It wouldn't be gruesome because hanging isn't gruesome. It isn't like someone is being beheaded. It still wouldn't be a fun event, but it also wouldn't be a gruesome event though.
But it is possible that, since Winston already considers himself a dead man, that he will risk it all and try to form an alliance with someone he believes might help.
@Hailey I think Winston kind of already has started rebelling. Think about what he wrote in his journal. "DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER!" He doesn't like them and I think he's eventually going to get into a state of full rebellion.
@Ellen, Emma, and Drew- I agree with all of you. Everyone had a slightly different idea about it, and I think that it's all of them. The main thing in each of yours was that it had to with government.
I think Big Brother is symbolic of Joseph Stalin because Stalin killed his own people while, Hitler killed other races and nationalities. Big Brother vaporizes people who are starting to gain momentum in the government. This is similar to Stalin eliminating his political opponents.
It seems to me than Winston is physically an old man. Even though he's about 34, during the exercises, pains go through his body. He seems to be really old fashioned from writing with pens and living in these luxurious but run down apartments.
@Reid~ I think it's kind of like the hanging of traitors or killing of people in history. People like to see others being killed for doing traitorous things. So it's not necessarily fun but its important and a social event for people.
@Drew- I agree with you about Winston rebelling. I think, unlike Montag, he might not fully know it or recognize it (he wrote that in his diary not really knowing what he was doing), but he is rebelling.
@Drew I agree. I think that he realized what it would be like if he were free from the government, just like Montag. They both rebelled, without really knowing what they were doing. Montag took the book, and Winston wrote that in his journal.
@Reid I think that the hanging events are so popular because, especially the younger generations, it was all they ever knew. Maybe the people want to criticize the people who did wrong so that they do not have to face the thoughts that maybe they did something wrong too.
@Class Why are the people allowing themselves to become so brainwashed? Are they all really so stupid that they believe it all? Are they trying to convince themselves to believe in what Big Brother is standing for? Do they think that is the right thing to do, or are they ust living in such fear of him that they feel forced to believe these lies?
@Inner Circle It is very difficult to compare this to Hitler or Stalin.... In the book are soooooo many conflicting ideas going on that you can't just put a tag on Big Brother as "Hitler" or "Stalin". I see major similarities to a lot of things in history, not just something specific.
@ class When people are "vaporized", all records are erased of them ever existing. The way Winston portrays it, there are tons of people that are vaporized. But there must have been people who escaped before that, or else there wouldn't be a revolution. How do you think they escaped?
@Willie I think they are so obsessed with war because it's a form of excuse for the people to follow the government. If they rebelled against the government they would have this overwhelming task of still fighting in a war.
Do you think that Winston will make it to a state of full rebellion? It seems like Winston truly thinks that he will be caught and killed very soon. I think he will be caught and killed before he has a chance to do anything.
@Willie- That's a good point. I didn't really realize until now how old-fashioned he is. Isn't this a time of technology? He seems to be kinda stuck in the past, almost wishing that it had stayed that way.
@ Julia I agree, 40 years is a really quick amount of time to go from a normal community to a controlling goverment. It doesn't seem like that really could be possible. At least not in today's time. -Lauren T.
It's all biased information. They want the population to be informed, but only about the things that Big Brother wants you know. They own all the information, and so the pubic only receives the knowledge that Big Brother chooses to provide them with.
@Eliza--I completely agree with you. He seems like a complex character. It just takes a little bit of motivation to challenge what is considered "right."
@Julia In 1984 the government is so controlled because when George Orwell wrote this book, Stalin and Hitler were taking control in their country so if they kept on the same pace the government could have looked like this.
@drew, why don't you think the Thought Police hasn't come for him. Or do you think that they have sent people to spy on him. Maybe that brown haired girl is on to him.
@Julia~ I definitely believe it is possible. Think about our government 40 years ago. In 1981, the government was so different than it is today-and so was the economy and peoples lives and money. So I think it is definitely possible to go that far in 40 years.
@klarissa I think he represents both stalin and Hitler. They both took control of a nation. People believed the words that they promised and they had hope, but they took things too far. I think that is what happened in the past. The country was probably going through a hard time and needed hope. When Big Brother or the government provided that, they went along with it.
@Willie- I'm not really sure if Orwell even has anybody in mind while writing it. He may have been upset with the government in his own country at that time, and writing this book to make sure that it doesn't happen again. But I don't think he was thinking about Hitler or Stalin. I think he was thinking literally about what could happen in the future and writing his interpretation of it.
I don't think that Winston will be killed very soon. I think that he has been made to big of a character to be killed off soon. I do, however, believe that he will eventually be killed off, just at the end of the book.
@Maggie Maybe Winston is more like Faber. He hates the government and wants it to go down, but he is scared to physically do anything about it. Do you think he'll just have someone else do his dirty work nad just sort of get the gears moving?
What do you think about the Spies? It seems like Big Brother is using the children to capture and kill people. The children are very loyal to BB. In the future, when the children become adults, what will this world be like?
@ Elly Jack I think that the people are scared to go against the controll of their goverment. They "allow" themselves to be brainwashed because they dont want something worse to happen to them. -Lauren T
@Drew I think that double thinking will get everyone in trouble. Big Brother will most likely vaporize people who think too much. I also think that maybe the people who think more, are going to be the people who stand up for themselves and challenge Big Brother.
@Elly- I think that people are accepting this society as a form of escapism. They know (or knew, at first) that it was wrong, but they couldn't do anything about it, so they pretended they were happy with it. They weren't just putting on a show for other countries, but for themselves, too- they wanted to convince themselves that they were happy.
@Joe But this society has added so many techniques to watch the people excessively that Hitler and Stalin did not implement. Hitler rallied the kids and Nazis, but Big Brother has telescreens installed in homes and has posters and propaganda all around. I think its too big of a jump from a usual to society to the level of control they have in 40 years.
@Elly J I think that people are so desperate for leadership, that they don't care about the things they should be caring about. So the people are somewhat oblivious and don't necessarily know that anything is wrong.
@Elly J--I don't really think they have a choice. It is like the discussion in class the other day about Stalin. You wouldn't want to go and rebel against someone who has an incredible amount of power because you know that you'll lose. The government in 1984 might not have as much power as they think they do, but it is still a risky situation.
@Willie This book is representing all oppressive governments because they are all the same, they are all oppressive. But, many of these tyrannies fall quickly but they are using the power of language to make this not happen in the book.
@ Reid But is Big Brother really a person? Does he really have all of the power? I find it hard to believe that he came up with this system of control all on his own.
It's definitely an age of technology. With telescreens, vacuum tubes, and other things, it's an advanced time for technology. He's "old fashioned" from only the late 1950s. (Also, George Orwell predicted 1984 technology well.)
@inner circle I don't think that Big Brother necessarily represents anyone in particular. I think that Big Brother represents the government and how it runs. I think that it shows that there is always a Big Brother at some point in time.
@Lexi- I'm not definitely sure about why the Thought Police haven't gone after him. Maybe he has done a good enough job of hiding his rebellious state of mind. But honestly, there's a part of me that also thinks that they really don't care. I don't know. I'm just thinking that he hasn't been SUPER secretive about it, and so if there are all these stories of people ratting out other people, how come he hasn't been ratted out yet? Maybe they just don't perceive him as a threat yet because of his job (he works for the government) and maybe that will be a mistake they make. He might slip through their fingers for awhile and really rebel.
@Willie Yes. This is why I don't think it's written about one specific person or event. The vaporizing reminds me of Hitler. The regulations remind me of the Sedition and Espionage acts of 1918. The corruption reminds me of the Borgias in 1500s Rome, the Tudor family of England... the list goes on and on, and quite frankly, it's impossible to push all of these ideas off on one person.
@ Maggie If they use the children to kill people who oppose them, mabey they are trying to make a superior mind set so no one will rebel in the future. The society would agree with Big Brother and there would be no need for the spies. -Lauren T
@Julia True, but maybe George Orwell was just a really paranoid guy. He was probably scared that communism would take over and countries could look like this in the future.
@Willie and class Regarding your response to Hailey, haven't you noticed that most people are physically old? Today, people in their 30's are still very young. It seems like everyone in the story who are that young look old on the outside. What do you think about the significance of that?
@ inner circle Good point Heidi! I think that it's kind of representing the Big Brother thing. For example, our parents could say,"You want to have some brocolli, right?" Said as a question, but really a demand in disguise.
@Maggie I think that the spies are going to start growing in number. If the kids in the newest generation are already starting to become spies, then they are going to inspire their children, and the line will just go on. But then, if the world was overrun with spies, who will be left for the spies spy on?
@Joe I agree Big Brother is a fake figure head used to keep people suppressed. Big Brother draws some similarities to the Wizard from the "Wizard of Oz". He seems like a glamorous figure that controls all but, really when you pull back the curtain you find that he really isn’t the person that you thought he would be. Big Brother is just a way to keep the people under control.
I amazed that are no laws, yet you can stil go to jail. The no laws are a sense of freebom, but still bound to your thoughts and how treacherous thoughts are.
@Maggie- Well, I think the children represent the future. I mean, it's kind of a cliche and obvious way to represent the future, but I think that's what he was trying to show. The children have NO problem telling the Thought Police about their parents and watching hangings. This is the FUTURE of the society. Nothing, I mean NOTHING, can change the future if these kids are going to run it. They can change the present while the children are still children, but once the children turn into adults, it's over. I think he's trying to show that the society is gonna get to a point where there is no change and they're stuck.
Try saying some of these slogans backwards. "Slavery Is Freedom". If all these slogans also apply in reverse, then they're a bit easier to understand. They change the people's perspective about certain things. If they hear these things enough, back wars and forwards, then they really will start to equate Freedom with Slavery, War with Peace, and Ignorance with Strength.
This might be a bit of a stretch, but do you think happiness exists in this society? Anything that would make us happy today is illegal in 1984, and punishable by death, so that sucks the fun out of it. I truly think happiness is dead.
I think that maybe Big Brother was a person once. When the whole government started, maybe he was the leader, or an important person in the government. Maybe he was killed, or died somehow so he could become a martyr. But he's really just become a symbol, because his face is plastered on every street corner.
@Reid Its ironic because there are so many constrictions on the people. They may say that there are no "laws" but if you go against the government, it is punishable.
That is a great way to put it! You can't say that Big Brother is just one person, for all we know he could have written the book a neighbor. It really could be anybody.
I think that Big Brother may have come into power by promising the people better lives, but after he got to a position of power, he may have decided to change things around to gain complete control of society.
@Reid I think that's what the Freedom is Slavery part of the slogan comes in. The people are free to do as they wish, yet they have to respect and be loyal to the BB.
@Vanessa For the government to get full control they had to instill fear in the people. They had to have killed many for people to follow the rules so well.
@Ellen I completely agree. I haven't heard anything in this book that could portray happiness. Kids turn in their parents, people are hanged,and holidays seem to be nonexistent.
@ Class When the people experience an event and remember it, how can they possibly choose to believe the rewritten stories? If they experienced it, why would they allow the story to be changed or even gotten rid of just because Big Brother doesn't stand for it? I mean, when you were there when someting happened, but then someone changed the story or said it didn't happen at all in front of other people, wouldn't you be mad?
I think that's an interesting point. I wouldn't say happiness is dead for everyone. New forms of happiness have been created. Perhaps for some, following Big Brother has become a form a happiness. Movies still exist, and so do other recreational activities we have today. It's all a matter of perspective, although I think Winston's happiness is dead.
@Ellen--I feel the same way. While reading this book, I don't feel happy and I sort of feel like someone is always watching me. I tend to pick up on other people's emotions, whether they are real or in a book or movie, and this book is just so gloomy to me. I don't think they really even know the meaning of being happy.
Do we know for sure that it is Big Brothers face on every street corner? Couldn't it be another government official or someone standing in to make Big Brother look kinder or younger than he really is.
@Ellen- That's a really good question. I'm not sure. I don't think we've really seen enough of the society to tell if there still is happiness. But I would agree with you...from what we've SEEN, I don't think there is.
I think they use the children as a way of getting people in trouble because they are so young and the government wants to brainwash them early. If they believe in Big Brother when they are young, they will continue to, and keep passing that on to the next generation. That will only make the government stronger.
The saying Ignorance is Strength reminds me of people who try to ignore things and maybe they'll go away. Well, this isn't true but it could possibly be true for some people in this book because the government is good enough in their opinion already so they don't feel the need to change it.
@Ellen I think happiness exists but, it is a false sense of happiness. Happiness in this society is defined as living a poor life and obeying Big Brother. The happiness of today is different from the happiness of 1984. These people have been brainwashed to the point where they equate happiness with living a mediocre life.
@Class~ Do you think Big Brother is actually one person who is controlling everything, or someone who is just a figurehead for the whole organization??
@Elly J. The people are scared to go against Big Borther. They probably were too afraid of him to support their story. If someone was thretening to hurt me for remembering the right thing, I wouldn't want to remember it. I bet thats how the people felt, they dont have the luxury of being angry. -Lauren T.
I think that Winston has lived long enough to see many of his friends or family vaporized. He understands the differences between those who have been killed by the government and those who are still alive. He is able to decide who knows too much, and who will die.
@ inner circle The whole hate thing is so bizzare. I don't think that Goldstein is ment to be an official character. Instead, I think he is meant to represent what his side stands for. A concept, not a person.
@Elly I think that children do not remember all of their memories, so they create the memories off of what they are told. Also, I think the people are so afraid and paranoid of the BB that they choose to believe a different story to protect themselves. That way they do not react to it, and temporarily save themselves from the wrath of the BB.
@Elli I think the government wants people to think he is one person, by putting his face on a poster or having him give weekly speeches. But I think there are definitely a lot of people behind the idea of Big Brother. One person probably plays the part, but a lot of people are probably tugging on the puppet strings.
I think that people may believe that they are happy, when really they are not. Just like Millie in Farenheit, she thinks that her life is perfect and she is happy, when really she is miserable.
@Ellen As I said above, I don't think there are really any passionate emotions anymore. I believe that the government is trying to make everyone's thoughts the same. Happiness could "differentiate" people from one another. I do not think happiness exists because of the government oppression.
I think it really is an actual person. That's happened (and is still happening) many times before in history, and since this book it Orwell's political commentary, he could referencing Stalin, Hitler, or any such dictator.
@Toni- I believe that there was a whole paragraph in the first couple pages that was talking about how there were Big Brother posters on every street corner....
@Drew- I think that Clarisse and Winston are pretty different, actually. Winston is actually like "DOWN WITH THE GOVERNMENT!!!!" While Clarisse is just kind of living her life differently than is the norm.
I think that it all started with one person controlling the government, but now he/she has several people controlling for him/her. For all we know the original Big Brother has died and someone has taken over for him.
@Drew- I don't see a whole lot of similarities between Clarisse and Winston. Clarisse was interested in being herself and not caring what the government liked or dislike, and she was ready to take the consequences for it. Winston hasn't rebelled a whole lot yet. He doesn't seem to have a need to differentiate from the rest of his society, and he hasn't really verbalized his desires for the society either.
Normal is an idea that can't be obtained it is just a generalization of society. A wierd person is just an individual that is in the normaized society.
@Baergen I agree with you because its like making a kid who is totally innocent believe what you do because they don't know any better. In a way I think we do that today, just not on this level. But kids contribute to so many instances in history where leaders hurt their countries because they are vulnerable and dont know what is right or wrong.
@Willie~ I think he is a figurehead definitely. I don't even think that Big Brother (or whoever the image is) is doing very much at all besides using his face to intimidate people.
@Drew- I agree with you about the happiness thing. Happiness is different to different people. That would create variety between society, and the government can't have that.
I agree that Clarisse and Winston share many similarities. They both have knowledge of the way things were in the past, and they both want the future to change. They both have superior knowledge and wisdom in their societies. I believe that eventually Winston will die, just like Clarisse.
@Willie Yes it did we went through a very long time of thinking that a war was about to break out, a bomb would be dropped. The cold war never became a real war but it was a race to see who had better military material.
I think people are controlled by fear. People don't want to be vaporized so they conform and back down from their beliefs of government and everything runs peacefully.
@Hailey I agree, but don't you think that Winston could plant the seed like Clarisse? He seems to be the only one who's aware of what is going on (i.e. the chocolate ration situation. He knew that the chocolate ration had been lowered not raised). I think Winston knows what is wrong with the government and I think it is possible that he will be planting a seed.
@Lexi I think that there are some people that know that the government is messed up and abnormal, but at the same time there has to be people that are all totally brainwashed and clueless.
@Willie In a way I think it did. Nuclear warfare was on the rise when he wrote the book. Maybe he thought it would play a big part of war in the future.
@Willie I definitely think that is a warning about the Cold War. Because at the time that Orwell wrote it, people were just starting to figure out what exactly was going on with the Soviets and the bombs and the weapons. Orwell was definitely trying to warn America about what could happen if we didn't get out fast. And the old man in the subway station blubbering about how "we trusted them", he could be talking about the Russians, because in 1933, America did establish diplomatic relations with the Russians, only to have those relations broken in WWII. I agree that the atomic bomb was probably a cause of the Cold War.
What do you think about the thought police? Why is the government so controlling over individuals?
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think is significance of the irony in the book (i.e. The Ministry of Love is all about war, the Ministry of Truth changes documents and makes things up so people don't know the real truth, etc.)?
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think is the significance of
ReplyDelete"WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH."
@Maggie
ReplyDeleteI would be terrified of the thought police!
@Drew- I'm thinking maybe that it's so ironic because that's how Orwell sees the world he lives in or THINKS the world will be like in 1984. Maybe he's just trying to make a point.
ReplyDeleteI understand the Ignorance is Strength slogan but I do not understand the other two.
ReplyDelete@Maggie, I think that the government is so controlling because they are terrified of losing power (whoever "they" is). It is an interesting thought, however, as to who exactly the government is. But whoever they are, they want to remain in power for as long as possible. Therefore the Thought Police patrol peoples thoughts to hunt out individuals who they think might rebel.
ReplyDelete@Maggie- I think the Thought Police are in this book for the same reason the government was so controlling in Farenheit 451...anyone who has any opposition to the established government is considered a threat that needs to be wiped out.
ReplyDelete@Colleen
ReplyDeleteI have no idea what the significance could be. Could it possibly have a hidden meaning? What do you guys think is going to come from that?
@ Drew
ReplyDeleteI agree that this book has a lot of irony in it. Perhaps Orwell was trying to suggest that in 1984, life may be so mixed up and confusing that love will no longer exist, and truth will no longer be guraunteed.
@Drew
ReplyDeleteThe party/big brother's administration in either trying to hide exactly what they do, or it could be irony George Orwell built into the story.
I think all the agencies pretty much sums up life today. They are just a little over exaggerate some aspects. Today we do have people that look into our everyday lives and that can intervene if they feel it's needed.
ReplyDeleteI think the irony is there to show how awful and corrupt this society is.
ReplyDelete@Maggie
ReplyDeleteI think the thought police is kind of a way to make everyone the same. It's like in the short story, Harison Bergeron, they were trying to make everyone equal (and the government goes way too far to do it). I think that the government is incredibly controlling because they believe if everyone is different, there will be more thoughts against the government and more fighting/rebellion.
I think the sayings are very interesting. I wonder why people don't question them. The sayings include one word as well as the opposite. hmmm...
ReplyDelete@Class What do you think about all of the government regulations? Do you think it is doomed to fail, or has the government built a foolproof system?
ReplyDeleteIgnorance is blissful because so things people just dont want to know, but I don't know how war is peace. Also, is this society just one country or is this most of the world?
ReplyDelete@drew I think that the irony of the book is that it shows corruption in their society.
ReplyDeleteThis book is very similar to Fahrenheit 451 because of the way the government is. They are so controlling and almost force the people to be a certain way.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think of Newspeak? Is it the equivalent of today’s texting language?
ReplyDelete@Maggie
ReplyDeleteI think it is really creepy. The thought of being watched on video by the government at all times really scares me. Privacy is something that everyone needs in their lives. However, this method also makes sense to me, because if someone is going to rebel or do something bad, they are going to do it privately or when no one is looking. This way, people don't have privacy, therefore, they can't do anything bad without getting caught.
@Ellen--I agree that is an interesting concept. It is sort of funny to me how they make themselves seem so powerful, and act very powerful, but on the inside they know that their power can easily be shut down.
ReplyDeleteIs Big Brother simply power crazed, or is he an extremist who actually wants a "perfect" world with no crime or wars?
ReplyDelete@Hailey and Willie
ReplyDeleteI agree. I think Orwell is trying to make a point about how the government controls things.
@Casey I completely agree. In today's society, they sound insane because the words are complete opposites. However, I think these people have been pretty closed to brainwashed. It's difficult to comprehend, but it is definitely an odd phenomenon.
ReplyDelete@Julie- To me, when they say "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength", the government is trying to make these horrible things like slavery and peace sound desirable because they are synonymous, in their world, with war and freedom. I think also that the plan is to keep the world in so much struggle and keep them so occupied in war that there is no TIME for opposition. But, of course, if there is any opposition, they have the Thought Police in place. But I think the main goal of that 'slogan' is to make sure that the world is always occupied in war because they think it will bring them peace, and always being slaves to gain freedom and being ignorant to the problems so that they may have strength.
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI agree. Its like in Farenheit, they only are controlling for their own benefit. They want to be completely in control and things like thouhts may get in the way of them having that. Too many things could go wrong if people had complete control of their thoughts.
@Colleen
ReplyDeleteI think that is very important because it's showing that the government wants it's people to not know what they actually do.
@Gabe
ReplyDeleteI think to an extent this is like today, but not as harsh as they make it seem. Today people only intervene if there is a purpose to, the the officials in 1984 watch and hear every movement.
Orwell made Goldstein, the main object of hate, Jewish. Do you think he did this as a reference to the Holocaust?
ReplyDelete@ Colleen
ReplyDeleteI think the significance of the slogan is that the government is convincing the people that war is good, no one should be free, and and all people should be ignorant. Winston is different from the other characters in the book because he is tired of the war, wants freedom, and is very thoughtful and not ignorant.
@Colleen Exactly. It is really odd because power can be taken away so easily, but the "common" people aren't allowed to ponder this idea at all.
ReplyDelete@Julia
ReplyDeleteI do not think we know yet if this kind of government is spread throughout the world.
@innercircle
ReplyDeleteGoldstein isn't supposed to be a major character. Instead, he is supposed to represent an uprising against the government. It's not about him, it's about the revolution.
@Micheal
ReplyDeleteNewspeak seems like a realistic direction for English to go in. Texting language is making English shorter. For example: LOL, ttyl, cya, etc.
@Class
ReplyDeleteDo you guys think that the dark haired girl is a thought police agent? Do you guys think that if she is, he will be caught?
@Baergen For sure. It is too risky for the government.
ReplyDelete@class- On page 30 in my book, Winston is thinking about his mother in his dream. He says, "Tragedy, he perceived, belonged to the ancient time, to a time when there were still privacy, love, friendship, and when the members of a family stood by one another without needing to know the reason." What do you guys perceive that as? What do you think it's supposed to symbolize in the government/society?
ReplyDelete@Willie~ I don't think Big Brother is one singular person, but more a compilation of all the ways the government has control over them. Instead of Big Brother being a person, "he" is more of a group or party, as well as a machine (like the telescreen).
ReplyDeleteI think it's possible the some of the slogans don't necessarily mean much in particular, but a simply used the brainwash the people into believing that the way they live is how things ought to be.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteThe telescreen reminds me of the chip in people's ear in Harrison Bergeron. It is constant monitoring from the government and I think the Inner Circle is correct that it just brainwashes people.
@Eliza
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting point. The book was written just after World War II, so I think Orwell was incorporating the hate towards the Jews in this book. It was a politcal commentary of what was going on so I believe that Orwell is subtly incorporating a lot of these aspects.
@Class How similar is Orwell's idea of 1984 compared to the real 1984? Compared to now?
ReplyDelete@Willie- I don't think Big Brother is a single person, either. I think that they maybe make it out so that people think he is one person to maybe make the government seem more powerful. I would think our government was much more powerful if I thought that only ONE person ran it, rather than a whole group.
ReplyDelete@class
ReplyDeleteWhat I'm wondering is, do the people really know what's going on in the world? All they know is that there is a war going on, and that the government keeps winning. For all we know, the government could be deciding to cut down on a certain supplies to make it convincing.
@Drew
ReplyDeleteI feel like the way the book is written we know that the rest of the world does not have this type of government.
@Baergen--I agree that they are controlling for their own benefit, but in today's society we have complete control of our thoughts, but it doesn't seem like it is incredibly corrupt. Yes, we do have problems, but it is like that in any society. I don't really think that our thoughts have put us in extreme corruption.
ReplyDelete@Colleen- I think the significance of the quote on the Ministry of Truth building is that now in our society, we would never allow that. People are too educated to let people get away with saying stuff like that. But in that society, everyone is okay with it and they just let it happen.
ReplyDeleteI think it's odd that more people haven't tried to rebel against the government. If a camera was always watching me I probably would think about doing something to stop it. This book might turn out like Fahrenheit 451 where it takes one person to start a rebellion.
ReplyDelete@Toni
ReplyDeleteI don't think so, but you never know. I'm more curious about O'Brien. Do you think Winston will approach him, and do you think he shares the same ideas?
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you guys think about Winston constantly referencing to the 50's? What kind of point do you think he is trying to make?
@Julia
ReplyDeleteSo true, I was just thinking about that. The constant voices would drive me crazy!
@Michael
ReplyDeleteI thought Newspeak was a very bad thing. With Newspeak, they are trying to brainwash the people even further than they already are. When you don't have as may words to speak and think with, you can't think or say anything very complicated. I also think that Newspeak makes the people more like robots. Robots do what they are told, are there for a purpose, and, when no longer needed, they are destroyed. This is exactly what the people of this time are like. Newspeak is just another way to make the people like robots and control their lives.
The violence with the kids reminds me of the virtual world that kids surround themselves in today with their obsession of war games and even playing airsoft or paintball
ReplyDelete@ Willie
ReplyDeleteI think that Big Brother is completely power crazed. If he truly wanted the best for his people, he would spend less time vaporizing and killing people and more time making the society a better place. Big Brother forces information into the minds of citizens using the telescreeen. He uses thought police to ensure that the thoughts of citizens are pure. BB has complete power of the people.
@Drew I think the irony of the different ministries is a mechanism to show how the government has complete control over the people. The people don’t even second guess that the Ministry of Peace is all about war and that the Ministry of Truth makes up false stories; they are completely brainwashed by Big Brother.
ReplyDelete@Julia
ReplyDeleteAs Rick was saying in the inner circle, the brainwashing is also done through the hate. Everyone was shouting "B...B!" uncontrollably. This is an effective way to make big brother seem much better than the revolution, holding his governmental power.
@Julia- I agree with you about the similarity between Harrison Bergeron. But, I'm not sure if I see the telescreen as brainwashing yet. They are, yes, constantly broadcasting, but they aren't saying anything out loud to make them think the government is great. They are just forcing them to do stuff like workout and stretch, not necessarily feeding them information yet.
ReplyDelete@ Eliza
ReplyDeleteI think that it is possible the Orwell was makeing a reference to the holocaust. The book was written around that time, and the fact the the charictor is being critisized for being Jewish shows alot of the same mind sets that the Germans had dureing World War II.
-Lauren T.
@Hailey I was really struck by the part about when family members used to stand by each other without needing a reason. It used to be that a family was a family. No matter what, they were in it together. Now (and in 1984, I'm guessing) family is a little more complicated. There are things that I could tell my parents and they would never forgive me. There are things out there that could very easily tear us apart. Family is fragile now. In 1984, I think this idea has been taken to the extreme and family has become so fragile that it almost doesn't exist.
ReplyDelete@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteThe kids have kind of the same mentality as kids today. Depending on how a child is given information, they believe certain things. For example, our textbooks today could be giving us completely false information. We have no idea. How could we possibly know?
@Joe
ReplyDeleteThere are probably quite a few people that have thought of rebeling, but it sounds like the government is pretty strong.
Why is the hanging such a popular, fun event? Would it be pretty gruesome.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Big Brother is a person. The government is using Big Brother as a scare tactic. It could be nothing at all just figurative name to scare people.
ReplyDelete@Eliza
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Winston will approach O'Brien because it is a huge risk. What happens if O'Brien is a thought police agent? What if that caused Winston to be killed?
@Class~ What do you think of the little group that the government doesn't care about? I remember him saying that there was one little group but I forget what it was called.
ReplyDelete@ Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteBig Brother sounds protective and supportive. It makes you feel like you are safe and feel no fear. Its a great technique for the leader to use to keep his people from rebelling.
@class- This book reminds me a TON of Farenheit 451. It's the same....not plot, but idea. The government is all powerful and people are SO afraid they won't do anything about it. I also think that Winston will do something to rebel just like Montag did.
ReplyDeleteWhy is this world so obsessed with war? Winston says he can't remember a time when there was no war.
ReplyDelete@Hailey- I think that the quote means that the government, and the advances in technology have drawn people apart. I think that maybe, if from a very young age we were taught that our first duty was to the Party, we would probably be willing to betray our families as well. Right now, people are often taught that their first duty is to our families.
ReplyDelete@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI think that the quote from the book that you gave us symbolizes how no one really has their own emotions anymore. They just feel frustration. The government has now made sure that no one has their own passionate feelings. There is no love or anything like that. The quote is just showing how oppressive that government is.
@ Joe
ReplyDeleteI think people probably have tried to rebel against the government, but they have been vaporized or killed. Big Brother wants a society where everyone thinks what he wants them to think, so if someone had thoughts or beliefs that contradicted his, Big Brother would want them gone.
@Joe
ReplyDeleteThis is true but in the book Big Brother represents the whole government system. He doesn't necessarily represent one person.
@Joe people can't rebel because if they even think of rebelling the Thought Police will come after them. There is not space to rebel. Winston put his thoughts in a journal and now he is terrified that he will be caught by the police.
ReplyDelete@Clarissa
ReplyDeleteI think you're absolutely right. Big Brother immediately made me think of Stalin
In all of the books we've read this semester, there is a government of somesort. However, its not really known. We don't really know exactly what it is and who's controling it.
ReplyDelete@Reid- I'm not sure why the hangings are so popular. Maybe supporters of Big Brother believe it's a show of power and they'd like to support Big Brother that way. I'm sure they'd have to be gruesome!
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI think that the government has installed a fool proof system because they made strict rules, spy on the people through televisions, and make daily announcements that seem to hypnotize the people. I think the people are too afraid to rebel against the government because the government has built a reputation and proved their power by vaporizing people, or hanging them.
@Willie
ReplyDeleteEveryone is obsessed with war because they are taught that war equals peace. They think war will help the most and is the most important thing.
@Willie I think that people are so obsessed with war because I think that everyone wants to have the most power and everyone wants to win and to be right. I think people will go to war until they win.
ReplyDelete@Reid
ReplyDeleteIt wouldn't be gruesome because hanging isn't gruesome. It isn't like someone is being beheaded. It still wouldn't be a fun event, but it also wouldn't be a gruesome event though.
@Toni
ReplyDeleteBut it is possible that, since Winston already considers himself a dead man, that he will risk it all and try to form an alliance with someone he believes might help.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI think Winston kind of already has started rebelling. Think about what he wrote in his journal. "DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER!" He doesn't like them and I think he's eventually going to get into a state of full rebellion.
@Ellen, Emma, and Drew- I agree with all of you. Everyone had a slightly different idea about it, and I think that it's all of them. The main thing in each of yours was that it had to with government.
ReplyDeleteI think Big Brother is symbolic of Joseph Stalin because Stalin killed his own people while, Hitler killed other races and nationalities. Big Brother vaporizes people who are starting to gain momentum in the government. This is similar to Stalin eliminating his political opponents.
ReplyDeleteI find it odd that in 40 years the society goes from normal to controlled and the government seem paranoid.I feel like its not realistic.
ReplyDelete@Hailey
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me than Winston is physically an old man. Even though he's about 34, during the exercises, pains go through his body. He seems to be really old fashioned from writing with pens and living in these luxurious but run down apartments.
@Reid~ I think it's kind of like the hanging of traitors or killing of people in history. People like to see others being killed for doing traitorous things. So it's not necessarily fun but its important and a social event for people.
ReplyDelete@Lexi
ReplyDeleteYou're right, people will do anything it takes to get what they want. That's kind of a scary thought!
@Clarissa- Shouldn't he be a mixture of both? The military exercises remind me of Hitler, while most of the other stuff reminded me of Stalin.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@Drew- I agree with you about Winston rebelling. I think, unlike Montag, he might not fully know it or recognize it (he wrote that in his diary not really knowing what he was doing), but he is rebelling.
ReplyDelete@Drew
ReplyDeleteI agree. I think that he realized what it would be like if he were free from the government, just like Montag. They both rebelled, without really knowing what they were doing. Montag took the book, and Winston wrote that in his journal.
@Reid
ReplyDeleteI think that the hanging events are so popular because, especially the younger generations, it was all they ever knew. Maybe the people want to criticize the people who did wrong so that they do not have to face the thoughts that maybe they did something wrong too.
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhy are the people allowing themselves to become so brainwashed? Are they all really so stupid that they believe it all? Are they trying to convince themselves to believe in what Big Brother is standing for? Do they think that is the right thing to do, or are they ust living in such fear of him that they feel forced to believe these lies?
@Inner Circle It is very difficult to compare this to Hitler or Stalin.... In the book are soooooo many conflicting ideas going on that you can't just put a tag on Big Brother as "Hitler" or "Stalin". I see major similarities to a lot of things in history, not just something specific.
ReplyDelete@ class
ReplyDeleteWhen people are "vaporized", all records are erased of them ever existing. The way Winston portrays it, there are tons of people that are vaporized. But there must have been people who escaped before that, or else there wouldn't be a revolution. How do you think they escaped?
@Willie
ReplyDeleteI think they are so obsessed with war because it's a form of excuse for the people to follow the government. If they rebelled against the government they would have this overwhelming task of still fighting in a war.
@ Drew
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Winston will make it to a state of full rebellion? It seems like Winston truly thinks that he will be caught and killed very soon. I think he will be caught and killed before he has a chance to do anything.
Aside from Stalin and Hitler, could Orwell be discussing ancient history? What about the countless European kings like King James?
ReplyDelete@class
ReplyDeleteDoublethink seems to be a big deal. What do you think about it? How will it be a big aspect in rebellion?
@Casey
ReplyDeleteThat is so true! I feel like the government is very similar in all the different books/plays.
@Inner circle
I think that they are just trying to make people say what Big Brother wants them to say.
@Willie- That's a good point. I didn't really realize until now how old-fashioned he is. Isn't this a time of technology? He seems to be kinda stuck in the past, almost wishing that it had stayed that way.
ReplyDelete@ Julia
ReplyDeleteI agree, 40 years is a really quick amount of time to go from a normal community to a controlling goverment. It doesn't seem like that really could be possible. At least not in today's time.
-Lauren T.
@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteIt's all biased information. They want the population to be informed, but only about the things that Big Brother wants you know. They own all the information, and so the pubic only receives the knowledge that Big Brother chooses to provide them with.
@Nia Definitely. Their reputation is very scary.
ReplyDelete@Eliza--I completely agree with you. He seems like a complex character. It just takes a little bit of motivation to challenge what is considered "right."
ReplyDelete@Julia
ReplyDeleteIn 1984 the government is so controlled because when George Orwell wrote this book, Stalin and Hitler were taking control in their country so if they kept on the same pace the government could have looked like this.
@drew, why don't you think the Thought Police hasn't come for him. Or do you think that they have sent people to spy on him. Maybe that brown haired girl is on to him.
ReplyDelete@Julia~ I definitely believe it is possible. Think about our government 40 years ago. In 1981, the government was so different than it is today-and so was the economy and peoples lives and money. So I think it is definitely possible to go that far in 40 years.
ReplyDelete@klarissa
ReplyDeleteI think he represents both stalin and Hitler. They both took control of a nation. People believed the words that they promised and they had hope, but they took things too far. I think that is what happened in the past. The country was probably going through a hard time and needed hope. When Big Brother or the government provided that, they went along with it.
I think the Newspeak is a form of control. Big brother might be so paranoid that he has to reach this extent of over control to keep himself in power.
ReplyDelete@Willie- I'm not really sure if Orwell even has anybody in mind while writing it. He may have been upset with the government in his own country at that time, and writing this book to make sure that it doesn't happen again. But I don't think he was thinking about Hitler or Stalin. I think he was thinking literally about what could happen in the future and writing his interpretation of it.
ReplyDelete@Maggie
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Winston will be killed very soon. I think that he has been made to big of a character to be killed off soon. I do, however, believe that he will eventually be killed off, just at the end of the book.
@Maggie
ReplyDeleteMaybe Winston is more like Faber. He hates the government and wants it to go down, but he is scared to physically do anything about it. Do you think he'll just have someone else do his dirty work nad just sort of get the gears moving?
@ Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think about the Spies? It seems like Big Brother is using the children to capture and kill people. The children are very loyal to BB. In the future, when the children become adults, what will this world be like?
@ Elly Jack
ReplyDeleteI think that the people are scared to go against the controll of their goverment. They "allow" themselves to be brainwashed because they dont want something worse to happen to them.
-Lauren T
@Drew
ReplyDeleteI think that double thinking will get everyone in trouble. Big Brother will most likely vaporize people who think too much. I also think that maybe the people who think more, are going to be the people who stand up for themselves and challenge Big Brother.
@Elly- I think that people are accepting this society as a form of escapism. They know (or knew, at first) that it was wrong, but they couldn't do anything about it, so they pretended they were happy with it. They weren't just putting on a show for other countries, but for themselves, too- they wanted to convince themselves that they were happy.
ReplyDelete@Joe
ReplyDeleteBut this society has added so many techniques to watch the people excessively that Hitler and Stalin did not implement. Hitler rallied the kids and Nazis, but Big Brother has telescreens installed in homes and has posters and propaganda all around. I think its too big of a jump from a usual to society to the level of control they have in 40 years.
@Baergen~ I agree, it could definitely be a combination of both Stalin and Hitler, but Big Brother is more than a person, it's an idea.
ReplyDelete@Elly J
ReplyDeleteI think that people are so desperate for leadership, that they don't care about the things they should be caring about. So the people are somewhat oblivious and don't necessarily know that anything is wrong.
@Elly J--I don't really think they have a choice. It is like the discussion in class the other day about Stalin. You wouldn't want to go and rebel against someone who has an incredible amount of power because you know that you'll lose. The government in 1984 might not have as much power as they think they do, but it is still a risky situation.
ReplyDelete@Willie
ReplyDeleteThis book is representing all oppressive governments because they are all the same, they are all oppressive. But, many of these tyrannies fall quickly but they are using the power of language to make this not happen in the book.
@ Reid
ReplyDeleteBut is Big Brother really a person? Does he really have all of the power? I find it hard to believe that he came up with this system of control all on his own.
@ Drew
ReplyDeleteMaybe, but it seems like the government is too powerful to allow any rebellion to even begin to form.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteIt's definitely an age of technology. With telescreens, vacuum tubes, and other things, it's an advanced time for technology. He's "old fashioned" from only the late 1950s. (Also, George Orwell predicted 1984 technology well.)
@inner circle I don't think that Big Brother necessarily represents anyone in particular. I think that Big Brother represents the government and how it runs. I think that it shows that there is always a Big Brother at some point in time.
ReplyDelete@Lexi- I'm not definitely sure about why the Thought Police haven't gone after him. Maybe he has done a good enough job of hiding his rebellious state of mind. But honestly, there's a part of me that also thinks that they really don't care. I don't know. I'm just thinking that he hasn't been SUPER secretive about it, and so if there are all these stories of people ratting out other people, how come he hasn't been ratted out yet? Maybe they just don't perceive him as a threat yet because of his job (he works for the government) and maybe that will be a mistake they make. He might slip through their fingers for awhile and really rebel.
ReplyDelete@Willie Yes. This is why I don't think it's written about one specific person or event. The vaporizing reminds me of Hitler. The regulations remind me of the Sedition and Espionage acts of 1918. The corruption reminds me of the Borgias in 1500s Rome, the Tudor family of England... the list goes on and on, and quite frankly, it's impossible to push all of these ideas off on one person.
ReplyDelete@ Maggie
ReplyDeleteIf they use the children to kill people who oppose them, mabey they are trying to make a superior mind set so no one will rebel in the future. The society would agree with Big Brother and there would be no need for the spies.
-Lauren T
@Julia
ReplyDeleteTrue, but maybe George Orwell was just a really paranoid guy. He was probably scared that communism would take over and countries could look like this in the future.
@Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteWell if Big Brother were promising them great things it would be easy to fall into their words.
@Willie and class
ReplyDeleteRegarding your response to Hailey, haven't you noticed that most people are physically old? Today, people in their 30's are still very young. It seems like everyone in the story who are that young look old on the outside. What do you think about the significance of that?
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteGood point Heidi! I think that it's kind of representing the Big Brother thing. For example, our parents could say,"You want to have some brocolli, right?" Said as a question, but really a demand in disguise.
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think it takes for a leader/government to get full control, irreguardless of whether or not what they're doing is right?
@Maggie
ReplyDeleteI think that the spies are going to start growing in number. If the kids in the newest generation are already starting to become spies, then they are going to inspire their children, and the line will just go on. But then, if the world was overrun with spies, who will be left for the spies spy on?
@Maggie
ReplyDeleteUnless Big Brother is brought down, these kids will be completely loyal, having been brainwashed since they were born. (Hitler Youth?)
@Joe I agree Big Brother is a fake figure head used to keep people suppressed. Big Brother draws some similarities to the Wizard from the "Wizard of Oz". He seems like a glamorous figure that controls all but, really when you pull back the curtain you find that he really isn’t the person that you thought he would be. Big Brother is just a way to keep the people under control.
ReplyDeleteI amazed that are no laws, yet you can stil go to jail. The no laws are a sense of freebom, but still bound to your thoughts and how treacherous thoughts are.
ReplyDelete@Maggie- Well, I think the children represent the future. I mean, it's kind of a cliche and obvious way to represent the future, but I think that's what he was trying to show. The children have NO problem telling the Thought Police about their parents and watching hangings. This is the FUTURE of the society. Nothing, I mean NOTHING, can change the future if these kids are going to run it. They can change the present while the children are still children, but once the children turn into adults, it's over. I think he's trying to show that the society is gonna get to a point where there is no change and they're stuck.
ReplyDeleteTry saying some of these slogans backwards. "Slavery Is Freedom". If all these slogans also apply in reverse, then they're a bit easier to understand. They change the people's perspective about certain things. If they hear these things enough, back wars and forwards, then they really will start to equate Freedom with Slavery, War with Peace, and Ignorance with Strength.
ReplyDeleteThis might be a bit of a stretch, but do you think happiness exists in this society? Anything that would make us happy today is illegal in 1984, and punishable by death, so that sucks the fun out of it. I truly think happiness is dead.
ReplyDelete@ class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you guys think about Winston's categorizing who will live and who will die?
@Michael I think that, that could be a strong possibility.
ReplyDeleteI think that maybe Big Brother was a person once. When the whole government started, maybe he was the leader, or an important person in the government. Maybe he was killed, or died somehow so he could become a martyr. But he's really just become a symbol, because his face is plastered on every street corner.
ReplyDelete@Reid
ReplyDeleteIts ironic because there are so many constrictions on the people. They may say that there are no "laws" but if you go against the government, it is punishable.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteThat is a great way to put it! You can't say that Big Brother is just one person, for all we know he could have written the book a neighbor. It really could be anybody.
@ Vanessa
ReplyDeleteI think that Big Brother may have come into power by promising the people better lives, but after he got to a position of power, he may have decided to change things around to gain complete control of society.
@Reid
ReplyDeleteI think that's what the Freedom is Slavery part of the slogan comes in. The people are free to do as they wish, yet they have to respect and be loyal to the BB.
@Eliza
ReplyDeleteThat really makes sense. Are those slogans another irony like the Ministries of Love and Truth?
@Vanessa
ReplyDeleteFor the government to get full control they had to instill fear in the people. They had to have killed many for people to follow the rules so well.
@Michael~ I like the Wizard/Big Brother parallel. I think that they have inflated him into something that he is not.
ReplyDelete@Emma~I definitely agree. I think that Big Brother is a figurehead but he/it does not actually do everything singlehandedly, it is an organization.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. I haven't heard anything in this book that could portray happiness. Kids turn in their parents, people are hanged,and holidays seem to be nonexistent.
@ Class
ReplyDeleteWhen the people experience an event and remember it, how can they possibly choose to believe the rewritten stories? If they experienced it, why would they allow the story to be changed or even gotten rid of just because Big Brother doesn't stand for it?
I mean, when you were there when someting happened, but then someone changed the story or said it didn't happen at all in front of other people, wouldn't you be mad?
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think are the similarities between Clarisse and Winston?
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI think that's an interesting point. I wouldn't say happiness is dead for everyone. New forms of happiness have been created. Perhaps for some, following Big Brother has become a form a happiness. Movies still exist, and so do other recreational activities we have today. It's all a matter of perspective, although I think Winston's happiness is dead.
@Ellen--I feel the same way. While reading this book, I don't feel happy and I sort of feel like someone is always watching me. I tend to pick up on other people's emotions, whether they are real or in a book or movie, and this book is just so gloomy to me. I don't think they really even know the meaning of being happy.
ReplyDelete@Emma
ReplyDeleteDo we know for sure that it is Big Brothers face on every street corner? Couldn't it be another government official or someone standing in to make Big Brother look kinder or younger than he really is.
@Ellen- That's a really good question. I'm not sure. I don't think we've really seen enough of the society to tell if there still is happiness. But I would agree with you...from what we've SEEN, I don't think there is.
ReplyDelete@Casey For sure, and it just seems so....... Sad. It is just plain sad.
ReplyDeleteI think they use the children as a way of getting people in trouble because they are so young and the government wants to brainwash them early. If they believe in Big Brother when they are young, they will continue to, and keep passing that on to the next generation. That will only make the government stronger.
ReplyDeleteThe saying Ignorance is Strength reminds me of people who try to ignore things and maybe they'll go away. Well, this isn't true but it could possibly be true for some people in this book because the government is good enough in their opinion already so they don't feel the need to change it.
ReplyDelete@Ellen I think happiness exists but, it is a false sense of happiness. Happiness in this society is defined as living a poor life and obeying Big Brother. The happiness of today is different from the happiness of 1984. These people have been brainwashed to the point where they equate happiness with living a mediocre life.
ReplyDelete@Class~ Do you think Big Brother is actually one person who is controlling everything, or someone who is just a figurehead for the whole organization??
ReplyDelete@Elly
ReplyDeleteIf a small enough number of people remember an event you can cover it up because the general public believes the re-written event.
@Colleen @Eliza @Hailey. You all have slightly different ideas about the happiness of 1984, but I completely agree with all of them.
ReplyDelete@Elly J.
ReplyDeleteThe people are scared to go against Big Borther. They probably were too afraid of him to support their story. If someone was thretening to hurt me for remembering the right thing, I wouldn't want to remember it. I bet thats how the people felt, they dont have the luxury of being angry.
-Lauren T.
Casey S.
ReplyDeleteI think that Winston has lived long enough to see many of his friends or family vaporized. He understands the differences between those who have been killed by the government and those who are still alive. He is able to decide who knows too much, and who will die.
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteThe whole hate thing is so bizzare. I don't think that Goldstein is ment to be an official character. Instead, I think he is meant to represent what his side stands for. A concept, not a person.
@Elly
ReplyDeleteI think that children do not remember all of their memories, so they create the memories off of what they are told. Also, I think the people are so afraid and paranoid of the BB that they choose to believe a different story to protect themselves. That way they do not react to it, and temporarily save themselves from the wrath of the BB.
@Elli I think the government wants people to think he is one person, by putting his face on a poster or having him give weekly speeches. But I think there are definitely a lot of people behind the idea of Big Brother. One person probably plays the part, but a lot of people are probably tugging on the puppet strings.
ReplyDeleteI think that people may believe that they are happy, when really they are not. Just like Millie in Farenheit, she thinks that her life is perfect and she is happy, when really she is miserable.
ReplyDelete@Elli
ReplyDeleteBig brother probably started up this whole new government and then hired some help. Even today, how would you control an entire country by yourself?
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteAs I said above, I don't think there are really any passionate emotions anymore. I believe that the government is trying to make everyone's thoughts the same. Happiness could "differentiate" people from one another. I do not think happiness exists because of the government oppression.
@Elli S.
ReplyDeleteI think it really is an actual person. That's happened (and is still happening) many times before in history, and since this book it Orwell's political commentary, he could referencing Stalin, Hitler, or any such dictator.
@Toni- I believe that there was a whole paragraph in the first couple pages that was talking about how there were Big Brother posters on every street corner....
ReplyDelete@Drew- I think that Clarisse and Winston are pretty different, actually. Winston is actually like "DOWN WITH THE GOVERNMENT!!!!" While Clarisse is just kind of living her life differently than is the norm.
@Drew I really like that part about how happiness could differentiate people. It's very interesting.
ReplyDelete@Elli S.
ReplyDeleteI think that it all started with one person controlling the government, but now he/she has several people controlling for him/her. For all we know the original Big Brother has died and someone has taken over for him.
@Drew- I don't see a whole lot of similarities between Clarisse and Winston. Clarisse was interested in being herself and not caring what the government liked or dislike, and she was ready to take the consequences for it. Winston hasn't rebelled a whole lot yet. He doesn't seem to have a need to differentiate from the rest of his society, and he hasn't really verbalized his desires for the society either.
ReplyDeleteNormal is an idea that can't be obtained it is just a generalization of society. A wierd person is just an individual that is in the normaized society.
ReplyDelete@Baergen
ReplyDeleteI agree with you because its like making a kid who is totally innocent believe what you do because they don't know any better. In a way I think we do that today, just not on this level. But kids contribute to so many instances in history where leaders hurt their countries because they are vulnerable and dont know what is right or wrong.
@Willie~ I think he is a figurehead definitely. I don't even think that Big Brother (or whoever the image is) is doing very much at all besides using his face to intimidate people.
ReplyDelete@Emma
ReplyDeleteYes but we don't know that that person is actually Big Brother. It could be anyone standing in for the real Big Brother.
@Class @ Inner Circle
ReplyDeleteThe book talked about Winston and his family hiding from an atomic bomb being dropped. In this world, did the Cold War become a reality?
@Rick
ReplyDeleteMaybe not. The vast majority of these people are incredibly dedicated to Big Brother, and wouldn't dare question him or his word.
@ Hailey
ReplyDeleteI agree. Clarrise is the instigator of the revolution, whereas Winston thought these things all on his own.
@Willie--pg. #?
ReplyDelete@Drew- I agree with you about the happiness thing. Happiness is different to different people. That would create variety between society, and the government can't have that.
ReplyDelete@ Drew
ReplyDeleteI agree that Clarisse and Winston share many similarities. They both have knowledge of the way things were in the past, and they both want the future to change. They both have superior knowledge and wisdom in their societies. I believe that eventually Winston will die, just like Clarisse.
@class Do you think people in this society think that how they live is normal or do you think that they know of other ways to live.
ReplyDelete@Willie
ReplyDeleteYes it did we went through a very long time of thinking that a war was about to break out, a bomb would be dropped. The cold war never became a real war but it was a race to see who had better military material.
@Class What do you think about all the propaganda that is being put out? (i.e. the 2 Minutes of Hate and the smear campaign against Goldstein)
ReplyDeleteI think people are controlled by fear. People don't want to be vaporized so they conform and back down from their beliefs of government and everything runs peacefully.
ReplyDelete@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI agree, but don't you think that Winston could plant the seed like Clarisse? He seems to be the only one who's aware of what is going on (i.e. the chocolate ration situation. He knew that the chocolate ration had been lowered not raised). I think Winston knows what is wrong with the government and I think it is possible that he will be planting a seed.
@Maggie- See, I think that Winston WON'T die. We'll see what happens! :)
ReplyDelete@Lexi
ReplyDeleteI think that there are some people that know that the government is messed up and abnormal, but at the same time there has to be people that are all totally brainwashed and clueless.
@Willie
ReplyDeleteIn a way I think it did. Nuclear warfare was on the rise when he wrote the book. Maybe he thought it would play a big part of war in the future.
@ Willie
ReplyDeleteI'm sure that Orwell purposely put that in there. The whole point of the book was to represent what was going on in the world at the time.
@Willie I definitely think that is a warning about the Cold War. Because at the time that Orwell wrote it, people were just starting to figure out what exactly was going on with the Soviets and the bombs and the weapons. Orwell was definitely trying to warn America about what could happen if we didn't get out fast. And the old man in the subway station blubbering about how "we trusted them", he could be talking about the Russians, because in 1933, America did establish diplomatic relations with the Russians, only to have those relations broken in WWII. I agree that the atomic bomb was probably a cause of the Cold War.
ReplyDelete