Do you feel personally connected to any of the characters in this book? I know that, for me, they are all so very odd that I have a hard time connecting.
@class The proles seem to be a lot like what we see Americans as today (into football and going to bars, etc.). What point do you think Orwell is trying to get across by putting them in the story? What are they symbolizing in the society?
On page 108, when the girl with the dark hair gave Winston the note that said "I love you." Why do you think that had such a large impact on him? So much of an impact that he was thinking day and night about her now instead of just a nervous thought about her being a spy?
@Ellen I agree with you. The society in the book is so different from ours that it is hard to connect. They are totally different than us so it's hard to find something that we have in common.
@Ellen- I definitely feel that I cannot relate to any of the characters. Winston, to me, seems as though he really doesn't have very many feelings. I know we can see into his head and hear his thoughts through the text, but he doesn't really talk very much and I just imagine his face as blank. He is way too unhuman like, just like the society, for me to relate.
@Ellen, I agree with you, I can't really connect to anybody, but I think that's part of the story Orwell is trying to tell. There is so little individualism left in this society that people are all brainwashed into being the same. That's probably why it's hard to connect with one person, except perhaps Winston or the girl.
@Class- As we have read, it has become obvious that Winston is not in the best physical shape. What do you think this symbolizes? Do you think it will have any significance in the story?
@Katie- Yea, the note was weird. I almost have this feeling that the girl is a trap. Maybe she get him to do something bad and then turn him in. Maybe...I don't know. I just feel like the note, like you said, was out of the blue and something wasn't quite right. Either that or she is really madly in love with him.
@ Ellen I agree with having a difficult time trying to connect with the characters. They're so abnormal, I think it might take more reading to understand any of the characters.
@Hailey The dark haired girl seems a lot like a catalyst in this story as well, I think that both her and Winston will go against the system with having a loving relationship instead of just a relationship that is about producing babies and doing what Big Brother wants them to do like Winston's previous wife and his relationship was like.
@Brooke I think it had such a huge impact on him because there really is no love in this society. There are no strong emotions. I think Winston was taken aback that another person was able to express passionate emotions and that he felt that he could share that with her.
@Katie I agree, that note just appeared. It's foreshadowing for something. I think it also symbolizes how much Winston is againist the government that he didn't throw it out or turn it in immediately. -Kathryn
@Alexis: Do you think that Orwell predicted that the average human would be like that? I don't think that the proles were completely relevent when 1984 was written, like they are today.
Why do you guys think the phrase "WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH" keeps coming up? I mean, I know that that is basically the motto of Big Brother but the society knows that. Why do we as readers need to be constantly reminded?
@Ellen I agree with you, I'm finding it hard to personally connect with any of the characters yet. However, I think everyone has a little bit of Winston inside of them. I think at some point in every person's life a person wants to feel independent from doing what everyone else is doing.
@Hailey--It is hard for me to tell at this point. I was very confused reading this section because there was so much information. She is such an odd character. At this point I cant really understand her. What if she is like Clarisse in Fahrenheit 451?
I think that the dark haired girl is going to end up helping Winston. But what if she is just toying with him to find help turn him into the thought police?
@Casey I don't think Winston would try to run away. If he was going to do anything he would try and make a difference in his own city, but to do that he must get others to follow him.
@emma- the way he is recognized as not in the best shape kind of shows the fact that their society doesn't call for exercise anymore, that they are being monitored all the time so not everyone could've been watched over.
@Brooke- Ooh, I really like your opinion. That is definitely a possibility. I think that that makes a lot of sense...going against Big Brother. I think maybe that will be what the whole book is about and maybe they become the main rebels.
@Brooke Because he was convinced that love is dead. Winston was feeling all these strange emotions towards Julia, wanting to crash her skull with a cobblestone one second and wanting to see her naked the next. He didn't know what he was feeling, and when he read the note, he realized that it was love.
@Ellen I agree. I cannot connect to any of the characters because I feel that they don't have any thoughts. I usually only relate to characters in books when they have emotions that I have had before, but these characters don't show feelings at all.
@Brooke I think that this may of had such a big impact on him because it doesn't seem like people in this society talk like that. They seem very disconnected to there real emotions because of their fear of the thought police. I think that saying "I love you" could be interpreted as their "erotic side" to the thought police.
@Casey I doubt that Winston would run away to another town, mainly because his whole country is like this with Big Brother in power and I'm guessing there's more than just Oceania that is in this kind of trouble. Plus if he just ran away wouldn't that just mean that he did something to cause him to run away in the eyes of the government?
@Emma, I hadn't thought much about Winston's physical condition until you said that. They did say earlier in the story that he finally "touched his toes for the first time in years". He seems to spend so much energy at his job, that besides the community center activities (which he dislikes, people in this story don't have many mainstream sports.
@Brooke- I think the note has such a big impact on him because for all this time, he has thought that she is a honorable member of the party, who would report him to the Thought Police at a moment's notice. But instead, she is going against the party just as much as him! Especially in this manner- it's not just rebelling against the party, it's bringing emotion into it as well.
I like the storekeeper. He seems like th only person in this society who remembers the past and a time when Big Brother was not over powering everyone.
@Hailey I think it is just a constant reminder to us that Big Brother is there. The reader could be so caught up in Winston wanting to challenge the society that we forget he is there. I think Orwell is trying to stress that society isn't changing, even if Winston is.
@Hailey I'm not sure what her true intentions are, but I remember when she sat right behind him in the 2 Minute Hate thing, and I'm not surprised that she has been brought into the story a s a character.
@Colleen- Me too. It is so confusing and I'm not sure at this point if she's good or bad. I don't know what her motives are or what Winston's motives are, either.
This quote seems to be there to make sure everyone remembers at all times the government is watching over. It makes me think of the chant Jack ad the boys sang in Lord of the Flies.
@Ellen~ I can't relate to any of the characters, simply because they are so drastically different from me. There are certain traits of people I can connect to but no specific character.
@Drew W I think the proles symbolize the average man. They are the working class, the average Joe of society. I think the point Orwell is trying to get across is that he wants the reader to draw similarities between the working class in a totalitarian government (ie USSR). After all, 1984 is a story about the power of a totalitarian government.
@Taylor Well they may have known each other - I'm not sure about that. But there is huge connection between the two books. I think through all the books we have read so far, we can see that one of the main themes is challenging the system.
@Inner Circle: Are you sure there won't be at least a small rebellion? I think there will be, because that is a repetitive theme in all of the books this year.
@Hailey I don't think the dark haired girl has bad motives NOW. She might just want to rebel, but she's young and naive and could change her mind in an instant. -Kathryn
@Hailey I think it keeps comming up because it had baisicly been brought up all the time for the people under big Brother, if they have to always have it looming then the reader should too.
@Drew- Yea, that makes a lot of sense about society not changing and Winston changing. Maybe he's showing that Winston really can't make a dent in Big Brother alone.
@Taylor If you think about it, there are a lot of books that are similar. There are tons of books about teenage girls in high school, so I don't think it's too out of the ordinary for these to books to have the same idea.
@inner circle Winston doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would start a rebellion. He doesn't have any fight in him. He just accepts his fate and decides to live with it.
@Class Do you think that Julia is against Winston or with him? Could the note that caused such large emotions to be aroused in him all be a trap for him to trust her and tell her everything that he is doing and thinking of doing, just so that she can turn him in to the Thought Police?
@Arman, I think the storekeeper could be an important character in this story. He loves the antiques that he sells, so he remembers and relishes the past. Winston also told the reader that he hoped to return (p100), and buy more things and spend time in the store with this "normal",not brainwashed man.
@Hailey That's what I was thinking. Big Brother has such a strong hold on the civilization that no matter how much Winston changes and tries to go against them, he can't stop them alone.
@class- "The Revolution" that occured in their society really played an impact on their lives. How do you think this Revolution changed society? How did the Big Brother really come into power?
@Kathryn: I don't think we're really going to find out who the dark haired girl really is. I think that all she is is another Clarisse; she'll probably be vaporized at some point.
@Drew- I think O'Brien is one of the main leaders of where Winston works. Winston keeps saying that O'Brien gives him these smiles that makes him think he's on his side, but how does he know for sure? Maybe he will end up being totally against him. I think that Winston needs to be wary.
@Katie~ I don't know if there will be a rebellion or not, but I don't think that the fact that the books this year have all had rebellions implies that this one will.
@Blake- I agree. He is not the kind of person one would think of to rebel. I think the government wants people not to be in good physical shape, so that he will have no chance of rebelling- at least not physically...
@Drew O'Brien seems to be a motivator for Winston to see that perhaps he isn't alone in his thoughts, but I think that O'Brien is someone that isn't to be trusted and may even betray Winston in the end. After all, no one is who they seems in this book, they have to hide all of their emotions and thoughts so that they don't get killed.
@Brooke I don't think Winston would tell the girl everything on their first meeting. He's smarter than that and isn't blind just because someone claims to love him. -Kathryn
Well, the relationship between husband and wife is really weak and they don't truly love and value each other the way they do today. They just say yeah I'm married and we "love" eachother
@ inner circle To me, Julia seems like Clarrise in a way. She seems to start the fire in him. she encourages him to break the rules and challenge the system.
@Blake Yes, I think that this has played a large impact on how they don't trust anyone anymore. I think that they don't know what real love really is. They don't have personal lives so I think it would be hard to show real emotions when you are being watched all the time.
It's weird how Winston gained such huge emotions for Julia after hating her. The only reason he has feelings for her is because she said she loved him. It seemed that Winston just wanted to be loved.
@Brooke Although I am not entirely sure at this point, I feel like she's not a trap. I think that Julia (dark haired girl) is really feeling this. Just by her actions, I feel like she might truly love him. She held his hand and obviously felt some kind of emotion.
@Vanessa I agree, but these two books have more similarities then just two people who want to challenge the system. There are similarities between characters and the setting as well. Even in the way the books are written, they are are very similar.
@Emma~ Regarding the bad physical shape thing, if the government does not want them to be in good physical shape why do they have the mandatory exercise programs on TV every day?
Heidi brings up a very important point. It seems that everyone that is against the government works for it. Does this say something that always happens or did it happen in the time periods in which the books were written?
@Casey I don't think Julia is like Clarisse because Winston was already challenging the system before Julia appeared. He didn't need her to spark the fire in him. -Kathryn
I'm not sure where I stand yet on O'Brien. I think he appears to be good, but I think that on the other hand I think he is a really mysterious character and I'm not sure exactly what he stands for.
@Blake, I think Big Brother came to power similar to the way Hitler or Stalin came to power, they convinced the people that they were going to be great for the country, and if there was a boulder they had to get over, they'd get over it violently, to prove their power. The people didn't see this violent side, but competitors did. And slowly, BB has turned the world into what he wants, not what's best for Airstrip 1.
@Blake, I would bet that the revolution started out just as any other revolution in history did, but it ended much differently. In times of turbulence and political unrest, countries are at their weakest, and the people will cling onto anything that they believe is stable. That's how Hitler came to power in Germany, and I believe that's also how Big Brother came to power. There are always people with radical notions just waiting in the wings for their time to shine. And all to often, those times come when countries are at their lowest, because it is so unstable. Big Brother was just an idea that looked good at first, but in the end, was a horrible mistake.
@ Klarissa I'm hoping for a revolution. I think Big Brother is terrifying. There's always away to have control over society without literally controlling them.
@Ellen- I can't say I am.... The character I relate most to is Julia, but I don't think I could ever just hand over a love confession to a guy I had never met before..... And I really, since America is such a free society, and kids really don't have to work in cubes, I have never really done anything like that, either. One thing I do relate is the Junior Anti-Sex League, and the Girl Scouts. (I know they don't have the same message at all, but I think they are both the sort of non-sport activities that almost every kid joins, at least for a little while.)
@Blake I think Big Brother came to power through the fact that people were fed up with the society they lived in. They wanted a better society and Big Brother promised them that. This is similar to Vladimir Lennon promising the Russian people a better world if they put him in power. I think that the because of the Revolution people lost a lot of privacy and rights as human beings.
@Drew I don't know how you can tell someone you love them when you haven't even really talked to them. She kinda gives me the stalker vibe, which to me screams spy; however, I don't necessarily think that she is a trap.
@class- On page 102, Winston is thinking about smashing Julia's skull in with his trinket he bought from the old man's store. What the heck??? How can he go from wanting to kill her to loving her? I am not entirely sure if he's not crazy or has something wrong with his mind. I think this shows the power of Big Brother. People don't even think twice about doing something like that. He doesn't really feel ashamed, although he does say, "Only five nights ago, he had contemplated smashing her skull in with a cobblestone; but that was of no importance." No importance?? I think it is! Then he just changes the subject to talk about how he had thought of her naked. It's really quite disgusting.
@Rick I completely agree. Isn't Big Brother supposed to be a version of one of them? Based on the time period that this was written I think its plausible.
@Arman-it seems as if it was the time periosds created the rebellion of the people inside of the governemental control, because they understand what's happening while the other pedestrians don't know why things are happening the way they are.
@Rick~ I agree. I feel like Hitler and Stalin gave the public something to hate (and in this instance, Big Brother gave them many things to hate) and convinced them that it was the way to go about "fixing" society. People did not realize how dangerous this was until it was far too late to do anything.
That also sounds like Hitler's rise to power in Germany. The people were fed up with the depression and Hitler promised them a way out so they took it.
@Eliza That makes total sense. The government could have decided to send out an agent because of his suspicious behavior. It seems a little bizarre to me, and completely random.
@Elli- I feel like they are trying to put on the appearance of being in shape, maybe... Or possibly, they actually do want people to be in shape and Winston's bad physical shape is just another sign of how much he hates the government.
@Arman I think the reason that the people who hate the government work for the government is because they see what is really going on. They know how controlled everything is and see the dark side of the government.
@Blake I think that Big Brother could have come into power by maybe making people think that he could make their society better. I think that he may have mad people think he was great, then when he got into power what he said he was going to do may have changed.
@Arman That is true. Maybe it is because the people who don't agree with the government decide to work for it because they think they will make more of a difference if they are involved with it. I don't know, but it does seem weird.
@Taylor B. and class Going off of that, do you think any of the events in the book are kind of symbolizing what was happening during his time or WWII? For example, he keeps talking about Big Brother's 3-year plans. Stalin had several 5-year plans which completely changed the way Russian society works. This could be a relationship. Are there any others that you see?
@Savannah I totally agree. I think that no matter how strong a government or society can be, I think that we as people always will have a small amount of power that can grow easily depending on the circumstances.
@Emma- I agree with you. Maybe they also are just trying to find ANY way to make the people realize that Big Brother is all powerful, even if it's as simple as making people excercise.
@Toni: I don't think that we will really be able to tell if big brother represents Stalin or Hitler. The two men might have both contributed traits to this imaginary dictator.
@Joe--I agree. When he was remembering his wife he said that it seemed like she only wanted him for a baby to obey the party. He sort of seemed upset about it. While they shouldn't have really been in love, he wanted to love her. So it is a great observation that you made.
@Joe- I agree with you about Winston's emotions. I think that he didn't really love Julia, he just loved the idea of her. He knew that people weren't supposed to love one another, so he said that he loved her just to be in defiance to the party.
@Class On page 109 Winston was thinking, "Only five nights ago he had contemplated smashing her skull in with cobblestone;but that was of no importance." How could this not be of importance?! He goes from wanting to kill her to loving her. How do you all think that this is possible and what truly led to this change in mind set towards Julia?
That makes sense because if you work for the government you see what exactly is happening to make people happy or sad/oppressed. The people who work on their farms never know exactly how everything works whereas a government worker is living it first hand and experiences it all personally. The people are just told what the government wants them to know.
What's wrong with Winston? Big Brother strikes me as the kind of person who wants a perfect society and it seems that Winston isn't a "perfect" person in phisical shape. -Kathryn
@Class, Winston is always talking about how he does things, but shouldn't, since the government would "surely" notice the oddity of it. However, nothing ever happens to him, and no one ever seems to notice. What do you think that is all about?
@Emma~ Interesting point, but since the "trainers" are so passionate and angry about them having to do the stretch exactly right, I feel like they actually want them to be in good shape.
@ inner circle Winston isn't all about loving beautiful things and searching for love. To me, Julia and the beautiful object are masking his true intentions with the search for something more.
@class, - I think realizing that he is loved strongly affected Winston. Earlier in the book he claimed he was a "dead man", and doomed. Now, on page 109, he says "...the desire to stay alive welled up inside him...and minor risks suddenly seemed stupid." @class - I think part of this is that he really misses his first great love, his wife, Kathrine. Will she have any impact on the story?
@Toni It also draws similarities to people being fed up with Czar in Russian. Either way, I think Orwell purposely took some historical events from history and put them into 1984 to show us how oppressive a totalitarian can be.
@Drew- I'm not sure. I see similarities, but I don't think Orwell based them off of anything or anyone. I think he really just believed that this was the way the world COULD (not necessarily would) turn out in the future. He might have taken ideas from dictators and communists, though.
Is it possible that people that don't like the government go to work for the government because they WANT to agree with them? Or is it just to hide the fact that they doesn't agree?
@ Michael In context with people in power who promised a better society, think of Adolf Hitler, Stalin, and the Chinese leaders. It's brainwashing society think that life will return to it's original state, maybe even better. When Hitler promised Germany better lives for everyone, no one knew who far he had taken his promise. I'm convinced Germany wasn't aware of all the homicides across Europe. @ Inner Circle Do you think there might be a huge flaw that might be possibly hidden by the government? Just because Big Brother is in power doesn't mean negativity in society will mend it's self.
@Drew I think youvare exactly right. I think that George Orwell lived through some hard times and he used the expiriances that he learned from to write this book, thats why he has so many similarities to real life WWII.
@Arman- Doesn't it also seem as if something bad were to happen through the government to the people, that the people working for the government have unfair advantages to uderstand everything?
@Brooke I think Winston could change so fast from hating to loving Julia because he has been alone and deprived of someone to care for and is just grabbing onto anything at this point. -Kathryn
@Hailey I think that though Winston is figuring out whats wrong with the government, he's still paranoid of the Thought Police. I think that that might be the significance of wanting to smash Julia's skull in. Although he may not love her, I think he is happy to find someone else who knows there is something wrong with Big Brother's society. Before he realized that she was on his side (or is she????? :D ), he was just paranoid that she was going to vaporize him.
@Rick- I definitely agree. I'm not quite sure if Kathrine will turn up in the story, but we'll see. Maybe it'll become a conflict between Julia and Kathrine and maybe it will represent another aspect of the world that Orwell thinks could happen.
It was interesting when Winston tried to push the man at the bar for an answer about the past. Although he clams he did remember some of the past I don't think he did. The old man probably gets what really happened, and what is in the textbooks confused.
@Rick: I think Kathrine was just there to show how empty and controllable a lot of the party people are, so we can better appreciate how much strength it takes to resist them.
@Ellen Nothing has really happened to him yet. Maybe the government is just ignoring him because after all there is always going to be a few odd balls in the bunch. Also he hasn't really done anything outside of himself to really cause a threat to the government. But if he really does do something, I'm sure he will be taken in the night like he seems to always be so afraid of.
@Class @Inner Circle Do you think that the children’s history textbook is form of propaganda used by the government to brainwash the youth of this society?
@Drew- That makes a lot of sense. I definitely agree how he is paranoid about the Thought Police and maybe that is the reason why he thought about killing her. I'm interested to get some insight into OTHER people in the society and see if they act the same way.
@Ellen I think that its kind of like earlier in the book when it says that writting isn't "technically" against the law, but you'll get vaporized if you do.
I think that Orwell took things from history to kind of scare people into action. If people read this book and then saw the similarities, they might attempt to change the way things were going.
I think that the government expects to some extend that people will sometimes think "bad" thoughts and they don't get to picky about it. However, i think that it may have something to with the fact that he works for the government. they may have certain rights that others don't or they have their methods of blocking out part of what the thought police hear.
@Joe- I think you're right, it's kind of like losing a memory you can't get back, he feels as if so much information is missing that he has to find the old man in order to understand what actually happened.
@Rick, I'm not sure she will have a major impact, but I do think that often when Winston is with Julia, he will remember how it was with Katherine, and he will realize what love is. Love to him is Julia, and I think he is going to understand that how he felt with Katherine-and how everyone else feels with their families- isn't right, it isn't real, and that there is something better out there.
@Hailey In response to your response to my question, I think that (like Mrs. Moritz said) Orwell is writing a political commentary on what is going on in the world. He is not only predicting what the world could be like but also pointing out the corruption in the current world.
What is the significance of the old man? He must have known something about the past because he kept asking for a pint of beer. How does this affect the story? Does it show how much the government has controlled the people that no one knows what a pint is. -Kathryn
@Michael: I think that all teaching is a joke. It's almost all lies, created to make little children into "perfect" people that have no care in the world but serving big brother.
@Michael I think it is, just because when developing a government it is so important to get the next generation on board. If you think back to Hitler, he brainwashed the children through propaganda, just like Big Brother.
@class- What do you guys think about how there are no laws, but the Thought Police can find you and vaporize you if you do break the 'laws'? What does this symbolize?
@Michael I think that this could be possible because their whole life seems to revolve around the governments propaganda. Having history text books could be a easy way to brain wash kids because people look at textbooks as factual things.
@Michael I think that the history text book is completely a form of propaganda in the society for the youth. Everything that is in writing in this society is in favor of the government. Saying that the government is all good and no bad, and is always right and never wrong.
@Class- There are three superpowers, not just Oceania. Do you think the other two superpowers are just as totalitarian as Oceania? Do you think there are any countries or other people living outside of the superpowers?
@ Kathryn I remember Orwell describing his physical abilities. He has a " varicose ulcer right above his right ankle...." I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for.
Maybe Julia is the good guy. It's possible she and Winston have the same thought processes and she just wants an ally and to get this, she is trying different tactics. -Kathryn
@Drew- Yes, I agree, but for some reason, I just think it's more about the future than the present. But yes, I agree...he is basing a lot of this on his present.
@Ellen I agree. I think that it will just make him hate the government and his way of life even more because he will realize that his life isn't that meaningful without real emotion and love.
@class- Why do you think that people can't have straight forward relationships in their society? Why is it so important for no one to have an individualized life?
@Toni They are changing the past because they want to always seem like they were right, and that if the government seemed flawed to the people in the normal society that those in society would be able to take down Big Brother based on those flaws. But if no one knows the flaws then how could those flaws be used against them?
@Emma I think that the superpowers have control of everything. I would highly doubt that there are countries outside of the powers because they could never defend themselves. And I would assume that the other 2 powers are similar to Oceania because if they weren't, they also wouldn't really stand a chance in war against them.
@Toni I think they are trying to hide the fact that they cannot control a perfect government. They are trying to hide that they are not a government that can control everybody.
@Blake I think it's important for people not to have an individual life because people start to rebel against leadership once they start to have ideas of their own. The government is trying to make sure that no one has the power to disagree.
@Class With Winston's first wife, do you think that all relationships are like that in the current society in the book? Do you think that those in the book think that it would be so abnormal for a relationship to be like that? Could Winston and Julia perhaps change the way of thinking for a relationship?
@Emma~ I think that the other powers are just as totalitarian as this Oceania. They agree to the constant peace/war thing so they probably have the same mindset as those who live in Oceania.
@Toni I think that the government changes the past to somehow try to control society. I think that the government wants to remain well in power, and if the citizens see what happened in the past then they might try to change society to the old ways and the government doesn't want that to happen.
@Michael- I think that the history books are a form of less obvious propaganda. When we read our textbooks today, we almost always think that whatever it says in there is true. I think that they are trying to make this happen in their schools as well, but they do not want it to be obvious. They want people to believe what they tell them, without the knowing that they are being told.
@Blake I think its because the government wants complete control over everybody. If people have freedom, Big Brother would not be as strong and powerful as they are. They have to control absolutely everything.
@inner circle My question is, if the government just wants to make more children as supporters of Big Brother, then why don't they allow couples to get a divorce? Chances are, they'll find someone else and make more.
@Blake I think that there are no relationships like we have today because of Big Brother's oppression. If people have an idividualized life, they have more of a chance of rebelling. If Big Brother doesn't keep all the citizens reined in, he won't have as much power.
@Emma, That's an interesting question. I believe the other superpowers are totalitarian, because they are so large and able to wage a war with Oceania. They must be powerful to compete with Big Brother.
@Katie I think that statement is foreshadowing, but also explaining the past. Perhaps that how people thought 20 years prior to the setting in the book. The government is just trying to solidify that idea. -Kathryn
@Class 1984 is a collage of all the totalitarian governments throughout history. Orwell is warning us of the dangers of a totalitarian government and how they can oppress you.
@Ellen No, I really don't think the government has as much control as they wish they do. I almost think that Bid Brother is a scare tactict, just so people with not rebell.
@Blake I think they want everyone to have an individualized life because the government is afraid that if people are together they will think together and brainstorm ideas about rebellion. You can't rebel the government with one person. If they keep everyone away from each other it is harder to rebel.
@Class If the government looks down as sex so much, why do they want people to make so many babies? It's the same process. That seems kind of contradictory to me.
@Brooke- I'm not sure. It's hard to tell. In both "Fahrenheit 451" and this book, I get really frustrated because in the entirety of "Fahrenheit 451" and so far in this book, we haven't really gotten any insight from anyone but the main characters. We haven't gotten a confirmation that the rest of society's lives are like those of the main characters, and so I find it hard to decide if everything is alike or if the main characters are just odd ducks.
This is the government trying to make sure that, to the best of their ability, they make people feel like they are living a happy, full life. They are trying to brainwash the people, is what it seems.
What do you think really happens to those who are vaporized? Are you killed? Or just placed into a new setting? The people who are vaporized could also be brain washed into thinking that they are someone else. What are your thoughts?
@Brooke- I think that Winston and Julia will change the way taht the society thinks of relationships, that love is formed from the heart, but I do think that that the people will find it weird because they don't konw what it's like, growing up in a society where there aren't any relationships.
@Blake Because when you have a relationship, you have something that could put you above other people. When you are in a relationship, you either feel better or worse about yourself (hopefully better...) But the government is afraid that real human interaction and relationships will give people something to do besides worship the government. It will take peoples' eyes off the prize.
@Drew- It does seem contradictory. Maybe because sex is equated with pleasure (which may be looked down on) but they want babies because it will just add more government workers for them.
if I were starting a rebellion, I would go to the majority. Winston siad that the power is in the proles. I think that's where hell go for help. -Kathryn
@drew The government doesn't want them to have sex because they view lust as "erotic thoughts" and they don;t like the citizens having thought freedom because thoughts could be turned into actions
Do you feel personally connected to any of the characters in this book? I know that, for me, they are all so very odd that I have a hard time connecting.
ReplyDelete@class
ReplyDeleteThe proles seem to be a lot like what we see Americans as today (into football and going to bars, etc.). What point do you think Orwell is trying to get across by putting them in the story? What are they symbolizing in the society?
@class- What do you think the significance of the dark-haired girl is? What do you think the relationship between Winston and her will reveal?
ReplyDelete@class
ReplyDeleteWhat are your opinions on Winston's thought process?
On page 108, when the girl with the dark hair gave Winston the note that said "I love you." Why do you think that had such a large impact on him? So much of an impact that he was thinking day and night about her now instead of just a nervous thought about her being a spy?
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. The society in the book is so different from ours that it is hard to connect. They are totally different than us so it's hard to find something that we have in common.
@Class: What did you think of the note saying "I love you."? It was kind of out of the blue; he had never even spoken to her!
ReplyDelete@Ellen- I definitely feel that I cannot relate to any of the characters. Winston, to me, seems as though he really doesn't have very many feelings. I know we can see into his head and hear his thoughts through the text, but he doesn't really talk very much and I just imagine his face as blank. He is way too unhuman like, just like the society, for me to relate.
ReplyDelete@Ellen,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, I can't really connect to anybody, but I think that's part of the story Orwell is trying to tell. There is so little individualism left in this society that people are all brainwashed into being the same. That's probably why it's hard to connect with one person, except perhaps Winston or the girl.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI agree. I feel like because everything is so different from our society that it is more like a history book. Not very connectible.
@drew I think that Orwell is trying to get across is that it is symbolizing that these types of things can be timeless.
ReplyDelete@Class- As we have read, it has become obvious that Winston is not in the best physical shape. What do you think this symbolizes? Do you think it will have any significance in the story?
ReplyDelete@Katie- Yea, the note was weird. I almost have this feeling that the girl is a trap. Maybe she get him to do something bad and then turn him in. Maybe...I don't know. I just feel like the note, like you said, was out of the blue and something wasn't quite right. Either that or she is really madly in love with him.
ReplyDelete@inner circle
ReplyDeleteIf winston hates the telescreens so much, do you think he might run away to the other town?
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteIt's hard for me to connect to the characters just because of how corrupt and stupid they are. Something about them just bothers me!
@ Ellen
ReplyDeleteI agree with having a difficult time trying to connect with the characters. They're so abnormal, I think it might take more reading to understand any of the characters.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteThe dark haired girl seems a lot like a catalyst in this story as well, I think that both her and Winston will go against the system with having a loving relationship instead of just a relationship that is about producing babies and doing what Big Brother wants them to do like Winston's previous wife and his relationship was like.
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI think it had such a huge impact on him because there really is no love in this society. There are no strong emotions. I think Winston was taken aback that another person was able to express passionate emotions and that he felt that he could share that with her.
@Katie
ReplyDeleteI agree, that note just appeared. It's foreshadowing for something. I think it also symbolizes how much Winston is againist the government that he didn't throw it out or turn it in immediately.
-Kathryn
@Alexis:
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Orwell predicted that the average human would be like that? I don't think that the proles were completely relevent when 1984 was written, like they are today.
What was your opinion on the storekeeper that he bought the coral from? He seems like more of a normal person.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you guys think the phrase "WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH" keeps coming up? I mean, I know that that is basically the motto of Big Brother but the society knows that. Why do we as readers need to be constantly reminded?
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, I'm finding it hard to personally connect with any of the characters yet. However, I think everyone has a little bit of Winston inside of them. I think at some point in every person's life a person wants to feel independent from doing what everyone else is doing.
@Hailey--It is hard for me to tell at this point. I was very confused reading this section because there was so much information. She is such an odd character. At this point I cant really understand her. What if she is like Clarisse in Fahrenheit 451?
ReplyDelete@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI think that the dark haired girl is going to end up helping Winston. But what if she is just toying with him to find help turn him into the thought police?
@Casey
ReplyDeleteI don't think Winston would try to run away. If he was going to do anything he would try and make a difference in his own city, but to do that he must get others to follow him.
@class
ReplyDeleteDo you think that George Orwell and Ray Bradbery knew eachother, do you think they had any simmialr expiriances to write so similar books?
@emma- the way he is recognized as not in the best shape kind of shows the fact that their society doesn't call for exercise anymore, that they are being monitored all the time so not everyone could've been watched over.
ReplyDelete@Brooke- Ooh, I really like your opinion. That is definitely a possibility. I think that that makes a lot of sense...going against Big Brother. I think maybe that will be what the whole book is about and maybe they become the main rebels.
ReplyDelete@Brooke Because he was convinced that love is dead. Winston was feeling all these strange emotions towards Julia, wanting to crash her skull with a cobblestone one second and wanting to see her naked the next. He didn't know what he was feeling, and when he read the note, he realized that it was love.
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI agree. I cannot connect to any of the characters because I feel that they don't have any thoughts. I usually only relate to characters in books when they have emotions that I have had before, but these characters don't show feelings at all.
@Kathryn:
ReplyDeleteDo you think there are many people against the government? Just hiding, waiting to strike? If so, how many?
@Brooke I think that this may of had such a big impact on him because it doesn't seem like people in this society talk like that. They seem very disconnected to there real emotions because of their fear of the thought police. I think that saying "I love you" could be interpreted as their "erotic side" to the thought police.
ReplyDelete@Casey
ReplyDeleteI doubt that Winston would run away to another town, mainly because his whole country is like this with Big Brother in power and I'm guessing there's more than just Oceania that is in this kind of trouble. Plus if he just ran away wouldn't that just mean that he did something to cause him to run away in the eyes of the government?
@ Casey
ReplyDeleteI think he might of had thoughts and urges to live in another town, city, or country. But what about other places around the world?
@Emma,
ReplyDeleteI hadn't thought much about Winston's physical condition until you said that. They did say earlier in the story that he finally "touched his toes for the first time in years". He seems to spend so much energy at his job, that besides the community center activities (which he dislikes, people in this story don't have many mainstream sports.
@Brooke- I think the note has such a big impact on him because for all this time, he has thought that she is a honorable member of the party, who would report him to the Thought Police at a moment's notice. But instead, she is going against the party just as much as him! Especially in this manner- it's not just rebelling against the party, it's bringing emotion into it as well.
ReplyDeleteI like the storekeeper. He seems like th only person in this society who remembers the past and a time when Big Brother was not over powering everyone.
ReplyDelete@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI think it is just a constant reminder to us that Big Brother is there. The reader could be so caught up in Winston wanting to challenge the society that we forget he is there. I think Orwell is trying to stress that society isn't changing, even if Winston is.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what her true intentions are, but I remember when she sat right behind him in the 2 Minute Hate thing, and I'm not surprised that she has been brought into the story a s a character.
@Colleen- Me too. It is so confusing and I'm not sure at this point if she's good or bad. I don't know what her motives are or what Winston's motives are, either.
ReplyDelete@ Hailey
ReplyDeleteThis quote seems to be there to make sure everyone remembers at all times the government is watching over. It makes me think of the chant Jack ad the boys sang in Lord of the Flies.
@Ellen~ I can't relate to any of the characters, simply because they are so drastically different from me. There are certain traits of people I can connect to but no specific character.
ReplyDelete@Drew W I think the proles symbolize the average man. They are the working class, the average Joe of society. I think the point Orwell is trying to get across is that he wants the reader to draw similarities between the working class in a totalitarian government (ie USSR). After all, 1984 is a story about the power of a totalitarian government.
ReplyDelete@Toni- That's exactly what I think. She seems a little sketchy. She doesn't talk to him and sent him a note that could get him in trouble...
ReplyDelete@class- does the way they see love in their society really play an impact on how there's no more personal lives? That they don't trust anyone anymore?
ReplyDelete@Taylor
ReplyDeleteWell they may have known each other - I'm not sure about that. But there is huge connection between the two books. I think through all the books we have read so far, we can see that one of the main themes is challenging the system.
@Inner Circle:
ReplyDeleteAre you sure there won't be at least a small rebellion? I think there will be, because that is a repetitive theme in all of the books this year.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI don't think the dark haired girl has bad motives NOW. She might just want to rebel, but she's young and naive and could change her mind in an instant.
-Kathryn
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI think it keeps comming up because it had baisicly been brought up all the time for the people under big Brother, if they have to always have it looming then the reader should too.
@Drew- Yea, that makes a lot of sense about society not changing and Winston changing. Maybe he's showing that Winston really can't make a dent in Big Brother alone.
ReplyDelete@class
ReplyDeleteWhat is the significance of O'Brien? His name keeps popping up. Who is he? What do you predict will happen with O'Brien and Winston?
@Taylor
ReplyDeleteIf you think about it, there are a lot of books that are similar. There are tons of books about teenage girls in high school, so I don't think it's too out of the ordinary for these to books to have the same idea.
@inner circle
ReplyDeleteWinston doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would start a rebellion. He doesn't have any fight in him. He just accepts his fate and decides to live with it.
@Class
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Julia is against Winston or with him? Could the note that caused such large emotions to be aroused in him all be a trap for him to trust her and tell her everything that he is doing and thinking of doing, just so that she can turn him in to the Thought Police?
@class
ReplyDeleteWhat's your opinion on O'Brien? He hasn't really played a major role in the story yet. When will he do something and what will he do?
-Kathryn
@Arman,
ReplyDeleteI think the storekeeper could be an important character in this story. He loves the antiques that he sells, so he remembers and relishes the past. Winston also told the reader that he hoped to return (p100), and buy more things and spend time in the store with this "normal",not brainwashed man.
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteThat's what I was thinking. Big Brother has such a strong hold on the civilization that no matter how much Winston changes and tries to go against them, he can't stop them alone.
@class- "The Revolution" that occured in their society really played an impact on their lives. How do you think this Revolution changed society? How did the Big Brother really come into power?
ReplyDelete@Kathryn:
ReplyDeleteI don't think we're really going to find out who the dark haired girl really is. I think that all she is is another Clarisse; she'll probably be vaporized at some point.
@Drew- I think O'Brien is one of the main leaders of where Winston works. Winston keeps saying that O'Brien gives him these smiles that makes him think he's on his side, but how does he know for sure? Maybe he will end up being totally against him. I think that Winston needs to be wary.
ReplyDelete@Katie~ I don't know if there will be a rebellion or not, but I don't think that the fact that the books this year have all had rebellions implies that this one will.
ReplyDeleteI get the feeling that none of you are relating to the characters that much, but is there a specific event in the book that you connect with?
ReplyDelete@Katie
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Katie, I tend to think that there will also be a rebellion. I don't think that should totally be ruled out.
@Blake- I agree. He is not the kind of person one would think of to rebel. I think the government wants people not to be in good physical shape, so that he will have no chance of rebelling- at least not physically...
ReplyDelete@Drew
ReplyDeleteO'Brien seems to be a motivator for Winston to see that perhaps he isn't alone in his thoughts, but I think that O'Brien is someone that isn't to be trusted and may even betray Winston in the end. After all, no one is who they seems in this book, they have to hide all of their emotions and thoughts so that they don't get killed.
@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI don't think Winston would tell the girl everything on their first meeting. He's smarter than that and isn't blind just because someone claims to love him.
-Kathryn
@ Blake
ReplyDeleteWell, the relationship between husband and wife is really weak and they don't truly love and value each other the way they do today. They just say yeah I'm married and we "love" eachother
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteTo me, Julia seems like Clarrise in a way. She seems to start the fire in him. she encourages him to break the rules and challenge the system.
@Blake Yes, I think that this has played a large impact on how they don't trust anyone anymore. I think that they don't know what real love really is. They don't have personal lives so I think it would be hard to show real emotions when you are being watched all the time.
ReplyDelete@Elli:
ReplyDeleteThe question really is, will the rebellion be full on or quiet and long lasting?
It's weird how Winston gained such huge emotions for Julia after hating her. The only reason he has feelings for her is because she said she loved him. It seemed that Winston just wanted to be loved.
ReplyDelete@Brooke
ReplyDeleteAlthough I am not entirely sure at this point, I feel like she's not a trap. I think that Julia (dark haired girl) is really feeling this. Just by her actions, I feel like she might truly love him. She held his hand and obviously felt some kind of emotion.
@Vanessa
ReplyDeleteI agree, but these two books have more similarities then just two people who want to challenge the system. There are similarities between characters and the setting as well. Even in the way the books are written, they are are very similar.
@Emma~ Regarding the bad physical shape thing, if the government does not want them to be in good physical shape why do they have the mandatory exercise programs on TV every day?
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think will come of the new meeting planned among Julia and Winston? (page 115-116)
@Class
ReplyDeleteAs much as i hate to bring this up do you recognize any past dictators or fictional charerters in the book?
@ class
ReplyDeleteHeidi brings up a very important point. It seems that everyone that is against the government works for it. Does this say something that always happens or did it happen in the time periods in which the books were written?
@Casey
ReplyDeleteI don't think Julia is like Clarisse because Winston was already challenging the system before Julia appeared. He didn't need her to spark the fire in him.
-Kathryn
@Joe
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. I think that he is a lot like Montag in that there is something that's missing from his life.
I'm not sure where I stand yet on O'Brien. I think he appears to be good, but I think that on the other hand I think he is a really mysterious character and I'm not sure exactly what he stands for.
ReplyDelete@Blake,
ReplyDeleteI think Big Brother came to power similar to the way Hitler or Stalin came to power, they convinced the people that they were going to be great for the country, and if there was a boulder they had to get over, they'd get over it violently, to prove their power. The people didn't see this violent side, but competitors did. And slowly, BB has turned the world into what he wants, not what's best for Airstrip 1.
@ Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Winston just wants to be loved. I think its more of the forbidden aspect of it that's catching his eye.
@Blake, I would bet that the revolution started out just as any other revolution in history did, but it ended much differently. In times of turbulence and political unrest, countries are at their weakest, and the people will cling onto anything that they believe is stable. That's how Hitler came to power in Germany, and I believe that's also how Big Brother came to power. There are always people with radical notions just waiting in the wings for their time to shine. And all to often, those times come when countries are at their lowest, because it is so unstable. Big Brother was just an idea that looked good at first, but in the end, was a horrible mistake.
ReplyDelete@class
ReplyDeleteWho do you think would join if Winston started a rebellion?
-Kathryn
@Taylor
ReplyDelete-Stalin
-Hitler
@Class:
ReplyDeleteDo we agree that the dark haired girl is another Clarisse? And if so, will she be vaporized?
@ Klarissa
ReplyDeleteI'm hoping for a revolution. I think Big Brother is terrifying. There's always away to have control over society without literally controlling them.
@Ellen- I can't say I am.... The character I relate most to is Julia, but I don't think I could ever just hand over a love confession to a guy I had never met before..... And I really, since America is such a free society, and kids really don't have to work in cubes, I have never really done anything like that, either. One thing I do relate is the Junior Anti-Sex League, and the Girl Scouts. (I know they don't have the same message at all, but I think they are both the sort of non-sport activities that almost every kid joins, at least for a little while.)
ReplyDelete@Blake I think Big Brother came to power through the fact that people were fed up with the society they lived in. They wanted a better society and Big Brother promised them that. This is similar to Vladimir Lennon promising the Russian people a better world if they put him in power. I think that the because of the Revolution people lost a lot of privacy and rights as human beings.
ReplyDelete@Joe
ReplyDeleteI think that Winston was feeling something towards Julia but wasn't sure what, but when she gave him the note she discovered what it was. . . love.
@Class
ReplyDeleteWho do you think Rutherford and the other men with him truly are? Do you think that they got close to overthrowing Big Brother?
@Baergen
ReplyDeleteOkay, then how do you think they came to be so similar?
@Drew I don't know how you can tell someone you love them when you haven't even really talked to them. She kinda gives me the stalker vibe, which to me screams spy; however, I don't necessarily think that she is a trap.
ReplyDelete@class- On page 102, Winston is thinking about smashing Julia's skull in with his trinket he bought from the old man's store. What the heck??? How can he go from wanting to kill her to loving her? I am not entirely sure if he's not crazy or has something wrong with his mind. I think this shows the power of Big Brother. People don't even think twice about doing something like that. He doesn't really feel ashamed, although he does say, "Only five nights ago, he had contemplated smashing her skull in with a cobblestone; but that was of no importance." No importance?? I think it is! Then he just changes the subject to talk about how he had thought of her naked. It's really quite disgusting.
ReplyDelete@Rick
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. Isn't Big Brother supposed to be a version of one of them? Based on the time period that this was written I think its plausible.
@Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI think Julia would, and possibly O'Brien not sure on that though.
@Arman-it seems as if it was the time periosds created the rebellion of the people inside of the governemental control, because they understand what's happening while the other pedestrians don't know why things are happening the way they are.
ReplyDeleteHow does Winston feel about Julia? Earlier he said he wanted to kill her and that he hated her, so how will he react to this sudden change?
ReplyDelete-Kathryn
@Rick~ I agree. I feel like Hitler and Stalin gave the public something to hate (and in this instance, Big Brother gave them many things to hate) and convinced them that it was the way to go about "fixing" society. People did not realize how dangerous this was until it was far too late to do anything.
ReplyDelete@Michael
ReplyDeleteThat also sounds like Hitler's rise to power in Germany. The people were fed up with the depression and Hitler promised them a way out so they took it.
@Eliza
ReplyDeleteThat makes total sense. The government could have decided to send out an agent because of his suspicious behavior. It seems a little bizarre to me, and completely random.
@Elli- I feel like they are trying to put on the appearance of being in shape, maybe... Or possibly, they actually do want people to be in shape and Winston's bad physical shape is just another sign of how much he hates the government.
ReplyDelete@Arman I think the reason that the people who hate the government work for the government is because they see what is really going on. They know how controlled everything is and see the dark side of the government.
ReplyDelete@Blake I think that Big Brother could have come into power by maybe making people think that he could make their society better. I think that he may have mad people think he was great, then when he got into power what he said he was going to do may have changed.
ReplyDelete@Arman
ReplyDeleteThat is true. Maybe it is because the people who don't agree with the government decide to work for it because they think they will make more of a difference if they are involved with it. I don't know, but it does seem weird.
@Taylor B. and class
ReplyDeleteGoing off of that, do you think any of the events in the book are kind of symbolizing what was happening during his time or WWII? For example, he keeps talking about Big Brother's 3-year plans. Stalin had several 5-year plans which completely changed the way Russian society works. This could be a relationship. Are there any others that you see?
@Savannah
ReplyDeleteI totally agree. I think that no matter how strong a government or society can be, I think that we as people always will have a small amount of power that can grow easily depending on the circumstances.
@Emma- I agree with you. Maybe they also are just trying to find ANY way to make the people realize that Big Brother is all powerful, even if it's as simple as making people excercise.
ReplyDelete@Toni:
ReplyDeleteI don't think that we will really be able to tell if big brother represents Stalin or Hitler. The two men might have both contributed traits to this imaginary dictator.
@Joe--I agree. When he was remembering his wife he said that it seemed like she only wanted him for a baby to obey the party. He sort of seemed upset about it. While they shouldn't have really been in love, he wanted to love her. So it is a great observation that you made.
ReplyDelete@Joe- I agree with you about Winston's emotions. I think that he didn't really love Julia, he just loved the idea of her. He knew that people weren't supposed to love one another, so he said that he loved her just to be in defiance to the party.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteOn page 109 Winston was thinking, "Only five nights ago he had contemplated smashing her skull in with cobblestone;but that was of no importance." How could this not be of importance?! He goes from wanting to kill her to loving her. How do you all think that this is possible and what truly led to this change in mind set towards Julia?
@ Blake
ReplyDeleteThat makes sense because if you work for the government you see what exactly is happening to make people happy or sad/oppressed. The people who work on their farms never know exactly how everything works whereas a government worker is living it first hand and experiences it all personally. The people are just told what the government wants them to know.
What's wrong with Winston? Big Brother strikes me as the kind of person who wants a perfect society and it seems that Winston isn't a "perfect" person in phisical shape.
ReplyDelete-Kathryn
@Class, Winston is always talking about how he does things, but shouldn't, since the government would "surely" notice the oddity of it. However, nothing ever happens to him, and no one ever seems to notice. What do you think that is all about?
ReplyDelete@Emma~ Interesting point, but since the "trainers" are so passionate and angry about them having to do the stretch exactly right, I feel like they actually want them to be in good shape.
ReplyDelete@Vanessa
ReplyDeleteI am not saying that they are similar because of something, I just think they have more in common then being about the same topic.
@ inner circle
ReplyDeleteWinston isn't all about loving beautiful things and searching for love. To me, Julia and the beautiful object are masking his true intentions with the search for something more.
@class, - I think realizing that he is loved strongly affected Winston. Earlier in the book he claimed he was a "dead man", and doomed. Now, on page 109, he says "...the desire to stay alive welled up inside him...and minor risks suddenly seemed stupid."
ReplyDelete@class - I think part of this is that he really misses his first great love, his wife, Kathrine. Will she have any impact on the story?
@Toni It also draws similarities to people being fed up with Czar in Russian. Either way, I think Orwell purposely took some historical events from history and put them into 1984 to show us how oppressive a totalitarian can be.
ReplyDelete@Drew- I'm not sure. I see similarities, but I don't think Orwell based them off of anything or anyone. I think he really just believed that this was the way the world COULD (not necessarily would) turn out in the future. He might have taken ideas from dictators and communists, though.
ReplyDelete@Baergen
ReplyDeleteIs it possible that people that don't like the government go to work for the government because they WANT to agree with them? Or is it just to hide the fact that they doesn't agree?
@ Michael
ReplyDeleteIn context with people in power who promised a better society, think of Adolf Hitler, Stalin, and the Chinese leaders. It's brainwashing society think that life will return to it's original state, maybe even better. When Hitler promised Germany better lives for everyone, no one knew who far he had taken his promise. I'm convinced Germany wasn't aware of all the homicides across Europe.
@ Inner Circle
Do you think there might be a huge flaw that might be possibly hidden by the government? Just because Big Brother is in power doesn't mean negativity in society will mend it's self.
@Drew I think that this could be true that Orwell did base parts of this book off major events happening in the world at the time.
ReplyDelete@Drew
ReplyDeleteI think youvare exactly right. I think that George Orwell lived through some hard times and he used the expiriances that he learned from to write this book, thats why he has so many similarities to real life WWII.
@Arman- Doesn't it also seem as if something bad were to happen through the government to the people, that the people working for the government have unfair advantages to uderstand everything?
ReplyDelete@Brooke
ReplyDeleteI think Winston could change so fast from hating to loving Julia because he has been alone and deprived of someone to care for and is just grabbing onto anything at this point.
-Kathryn
@Hailey
ReplyDeleteI think that though Winston is figuring out whats wrong with the government, he's still paranoid of the Thought Police. I think that that might be the significance of wanting to smash Julia's skull in. Although he may not love her, I think he is happy to find someone else who knows there is something wrong with Big Brother's society. Before he realized that she was on his side (or is she????? :D ), he was just paranoid that she was going to vaporize him.
@Rick- I definitely agree. I'm not quite sure if Kathrine will turn up in the story, but we'll see. Maybe it'll become a conflict between Julia and Kathrine and maybe it will represent another aspect of the world that Orwell thinks could happen.
ReplyDeleteIt was interesting when Winston tried to push the man at the bar for an answer about the past. Although he clams he did remember some of the past I don't think he did. The old man probably gets what really happened, and what is in the textbooks confused.
ReplyDelete@Rick- I never got the impression that Winston really loved Katharine. They seemed like they were only together because they had to be.
ReplyDelete@Rick:
ReplyDeleteI think Kathrine was just there to show how empty and controllable a lot of the party people are, so we can better appreciate how much strength it takes to resist them.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteNothing has really happened to him yet. Maybe the government is just ignoring him because after all there is always going to be a few odd balls in the bunch. Also he hasn't really done anything outside of himself to really cause a threat to the government. But if he really does do something, I'm sure he will be taken in the night like he seems to always be so afraid of.
@Class @Inner Circle Do you think that the children’s history textbook is form of propaganda used by the government to brainwash the youth of this society?
ReplyDelete@Rick I think that Winston is longing for that feeling of true love
ReplyDelete@Drew- That makes a lot of sense. I definitely agree how he is paranoid about the Thought Police and maybe that is the reason why he thought about killing her. I'm interested to get some insight into OTHER people in the society and see if they act the same way.
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI think that its kind of like earlier in the book when it says that writting isn't "technically" against the law, but you'll get vaporized if you do.
@Michael
ReplyDeleteI think that Orwell took things from history to kind of scare people into action. If people read this book and then saw the similarities, they might attempt to change the way things were going.
@ Ellen
ReplyDeleteI think that the government expects to some extend that people will sometimes think "bad" thoughts and they don't get to picky about it. However, i think that it may have something to with the fact that he works for the government. they may have certain rights that others don't or they have their methods of blocking out part of what the thought police hear.
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ReplyDelete@Joe- I think you're right, it's kind of like losing a memory you can't get back, he feels as if so much information is missing that he has to find the old man in order to understand what actually happened.
ReplyDelete@Rick, I'm not sure she will have a major impact, but I do think that often when Winston is with Julia, he will remember how it was with Katherine, and he will realize what love is. Love to him is Julia, and I think he is going to understand that how he felt with Katherine-and how everyone else feels with their families- isn't right, it isn't real, and that there is something better out there.
ReplyDelete@Hailey
ReplyDeleteIn response to your response to my question, I think that (like Mrs. Moritz said) Orwell is writing a political commentary on what is going on in the world. He is not only predicting what the world could be like but also pointing out the corruption in the current world.
@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI think this is a perfect example of how strong the government appears, but in actuality how weak they may really be.
What is the significance of the old man? He must have known something about the past because he kept asking for a pint of beer. How does this affect the story? Does it show how much the government has controlled the people that no one knows what a pint is.
ReplyDelete-Kathryn
@Michael:
ReplyDeleteI think that all teaching is a joke. It's almost all lies, created to make little children into "perfect" people that have no care in the world but serving big brother.
@Michael
ReplyDeleteI think it is, just because when developing a government it is so important to get the next generation on board. If you think back to Hitler, he brainwashed the children through propaganda, just like Big Brother.
@class- What do you guys think about how there are no laws, but the Thought Police can find you and vaporize you if you do break the 'laws'? What does this symbolize?
ReplyDelete@Michael~ Definitely. I feel like the way they get everyone to go along with them is by brainwashing them early before they know any better.
ReplyDelete@Class
ReplyDeleteWhy does the government always change the past? What do they want to hide?
@ Michael
ReplyDeleteThis is a prime example of the use of propaganda to the benefit of the government.
@Michael I think that this could be possible because their whole life seems to revolve around the governments propaganda. Having history text books could be a easy way to brain wash kids because people look at textbooks as factual things.
ReplyDelete@Michael
ReplyDeleteI think that the history text book is completely a form of propaganda in the society for the youth. Everything that is in writing in this society is in favor of the government. Saying that the government is all good and no bad, and is always right and never wrong.
@Class- There are three superpowers, not just Oceania. Do you think the other two superpowers are just as totalitarian as Oceania? Do you think there are any countries or other people living outside of the superpowers?
ReplyDelete@Klarissa That is what I was thinking about.... Do they really have this power that everyone thinks they have?
ReplyDelete@ Kathryn
ReplyDeleteI remember Orwell describing his physical abilities. He has a " varicose ulcer right above his right ankle...." I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for.
Maybe Julia is the good guy. It's possible she and Winston have the same thought processes and she just wants an ally and to get this, she is trying different tactics.
ReplyDelete-Kathryn
@Drew- Yes, I agree, but for some reason, I just think it's more about the future than the present. But yes, I agree...he is basing a lot of this on his present.
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteI agree. I think that it will just make him hate the government and his way of life even more because he will realize that his life isn't that meaningful without real emotion and love.
@Alexis
ReplyDeleteI think your right. Even if Winston doesn't feel the same way about Julia, he likes the thought that she loves him (unlike his own wife).
@ Rick
ReplyDeleteI don't think she was his first great love, and I think that she is really just supposed to be symbolic of something that once was.
@class- Why do you think that people can't have straight forward relationships in their society? Why is it so important for no one to have an individualized life?
ReplyDelete@Toni
ReplyDeleteThey are changing the past because they want to always seem like they were right, and that if the government seemed flawed to the people in the normal society that those in society would be able to take down Big Brother based on those flaws. But if no one knows the flaws then how could those flaws be used against them?
@Drew
ReplyDeleteThats true. He really just wants love.
@Class:
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think about the comment about "In 20 years no one will remember life before the revolution."
@Emma I think that the superpowers have control of everything. I would highly doubt that there are countries outside of the powers because they could never defend themselves. And I would assume that the other 2 powers are similar to Oceania because if they weren't, they also wouldn't really stand a chance in war against them.
ReplyDelete@Brooke- Well put. Exactly what I would have said.
ReplyDelete@Casey
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean She wasn't his first love? Who else had Winston loved?
-Kathryn
@Toni
ReplyDeleteI think they are trying to hide the fact that they cannot control a perfect government. They are trying to hide that they are not a government that can control everybody.
@ Rick
ReplyDeleteWhat is your opinion on the storekeeper Winston bought the coral from? Will he help him later on?
@Blake
ReplyDeleteI think it's important for people not to have an individual life because people start to rebel against leadership once they start to have ideas of their own. The government is trying to make sure that no one has the power to disagree.
@Class
ReplyDeleteWith Winston's first wife, do you think that all relationships are like that in the current society in the book? Do you think that those in the book think that it would be so abnormal for a relationship to be like that? Could Winston and Julia perhaps change the way of thinking for a relationship?
@Emma~ I think that the other powers are just as totalitarian as this Oceania. They agree to the constant peace/war thing so they probably have the same mindset as those who live in Oceania.
ReplyDelete@Toni I think that the government changes the past to somehow try to control society. I think that the government wants to remain well in power, and if the citizens see what happened in the past then they might try to change society to the old ways and the government doesn't want that to happen.
ReplyDelete@Michael- I think that the history books are a form of less obvious propaganda. When we read our textbooks today, we almost always think that whatever it says in there is true. I think that they are trying to make this happen in their schools as well, but they do not want it to be obvious. They want people to believe what they tell them, without the knowing that they are being told.
ReplyDelete@Blake
ReplyDeleteI think its because the government wants complete control over everybody. If people have freedom, Big Brother would not be as strong and powerful as they are. They have to control absolutely everything.
@Katie It means that in 20 years, everyone who remembers anything about life before the revolution will be dead.
ReplyDelete@inner circle
ReplyDeleteMy question is, if the government just wants to make more children as supporters of Big Brother, then why don't they allow couples to get a divorce? Chances are, they'll find someone else and make more.
@Blake
ReplyDeleteI think that there are no relationships like we have today because of Big Brother's oppression. If people have an idividualized life, they have more of a chance of rebelling. If Big Brother doesn't keep all the citizens reined in, he won't have as much power.
@Emma,
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting question. I believe the other superpowers are totalitarian, because they are so large and able to wage a war with Oceania. They must be powerful to compete with Big Brother.
@Katie
ReplyDeleteI think that statement is foreshadowing, but also explaining the past. Perhaps that how people thought 20 years prior to the setting in the book. The government is just trying to solidify that idea.
-Kathryn
@Class 1984 is a collage of all the totalitarian governments throughout history. Orwell is warning us of the dangers of a totalitarian government and how they can oppress you.
ReplyDelete@Moritz:
ReplyDelete3 minutes!
Final Thoughts?
ReplyDelete@Ellen
ReplyDeleteNo, I really don't think the government has as much control as they wish they do. I almost think that Bid Brother is a scare tactict, just so people with not rebell.
@Blake
ReplyDeleteI think they want everyone to have an individualized life because the government is afraid that if people are together they will think together and brainstorm ideas about rebellion. You can't rebel the government with one person. If they keep everyone away from each other it is harder to rebel.
@Class
ReplyDeleteIf the government looks down as sex so much, why do they want people to make so many babies? It's the same process. That seems kind of contradictory to me.
@Brooke- I'm not sure. It's hard to tell. In both "Fahrenheit 451" and this book, I get really frustrated because in the entirety of "Fahrenheit 451" and so far in this book, we haven't really gotten any insight from anyone but the main characters. We haven't gotten a confirmation that the rest of society's lives are like those of the main characters, and so I find it hard to decide if everything is alike or if the main characters are just odd ducks.
ReplyDelete@Brooke I think that it would be normal for relationships to be like that because no one has that physical connection
ReplyDelete@ Blake
ReplyDeleteThis is the government trying to make sure that, to the best of their ability, they make people feel like they are living a happy, full life. They are trying to brainwash the people, is what it seems.
@Class
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think really happens to those who are vaporized? Are you killed? Or just placed into a new setting? The people who are vaporized could also be brain washed into thinking that they are someone else. What are your thoughts?
@Brooke- I think that Winston and Julia will change the way taht the society thinks of relationships, that love is formed from the heart, but I do think that that the people will find it weird because they don't konw what it's like, growing up in a society where there aren't any relationships.
ReplyDelete@Blake Because when you have a relationship, you have something that could put you above other people. When you are in a relationship, you either feel better or worse about yourself (hopefully better...) But the government is afraid that real human interaction and relationships will give people something to do besides worship the government. It will take peoples' eyes off the prize.
ReplyDelete@Drew- It does seem contradictory. Maybe because sex is equated with pleasure (which may be looked down on) but they want babies because it will just add more government workers for them.
ReplyDeleteif I were starting a rebellion, I would go to the majority. Winston siad that the power is in the proles. I think that's where hell go for help.
ReplyDelete-Kathryn
@drew The government doesn't want them to have sex because they view lust as "erotic thoughts" and they don;t like the citizens having thought freedom because thoughts could be turned into actions
ReplyDelete